19t Without Remapping

[Johann]

thanks very much for all the decent help.

could someone just sum up what injectors have

-what capacity and what flow?

-what color?

excel sheet?? 

1. i think along with the 19T i will also get the (blue?) injectors of the 2000 265hp v70R. will those be alright?

2. (and another question: did my 96 R manual (came with 16t from factory, b5234t4) come with bigger injectors already?)

3. i still have a third option: i can get hold of a used engine. This one:

16T - B5234T3 240hp 1997-1998 finns i S/V/C70 T5, straight oulet from turbine.

what kind of injectors does that one have?

which of the three injector options is best?

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I'm sorry, you have an R while I thought it was a T-5R.

This model comes with the 350's already, they are the white injectors.

Installing a 19T is possible but then you need to change the downpipe, your 16T is using a straight flange. Waybe an 18T would be the better option.

Check boost at higher RPM. also the 18T will maintain the boost level longer so there might be a lean situation higher up the rev band.

[volflo]

I'm sorry, you have an R while I thought it was a T-5R.

This model comes with the 350's already, they are the white injectors.

Installing a 19T is possible but then you need to change the downpipe, your 16T is using a straight flange. Waybe an 18T would be the better option.

Check boost at higher RPM. also the 18T will maintain the boost level longer so there might be a lean situation higher up the rev band.

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Thanks Johann.

i thought i had the 350s already. Changing my down pipe is not really the deal. I have someone who ll make it. Plus i can get the 19T brand new for really small money.

Would u stick with the white injectors then or take the big blue ones from the 265hp-R?

What options do i have to regulate the fuel pressure?

[Guest matty]

Sorry to hijack this thread, but i have a UK 1996 850r auto with the 15g and a rica ecu. Im gonna be putting on a 18t and was wondering whether i also would need a remap?

regarding the lean condition higher up, if the bigger turbo's flow more, shouldnt the maf detect more air entering the engine and increase fueling?

[Johann]

Thanks Johann.

i thought i had the 350s already. Changing my down pipe is not really the deal. I have someone who ll make it. Plus i can get the 19T brand new for really small money.

Would u stick with the white injectors then or take the big blue ones from the 265hp-R?

What options do i have to regulate the fuel pressure?

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Lets put it this way,

The 19T of my 850 was transplanted into an 850 T-5R belonging to a friend.

He also upgraded the orange injectors to white and RICA modified the chip a bit but couldn't get the boost behave well. This car is running a 19T with a 3" catless down pipe and a Ferrita catback.

In the end the boost was set at 1 bar up to 4500-5000 RPM and a bit higher after that..

After a test drive in 5th gear the boost just went up to 1.5 bar after 5000 RPM!

No way to get the ECU control the boost in a decent way. Eventually he installed a Blitz DSBC Spec S boost controller and now boost stays within limits.

At the same time I installed the KKK of the R in my 850 together with the B5254Tx exhaust manifold. I use an S60 3" Ferrita downpipe with Kemira race cat., a converter pipe 2.5" and a 2.5" Ferrita catback. My car is also using the white injectors. For the intake I use a 3" RVS pipe with a connection for the crank ventilation, a stock T5 MAF and for now a "Green" filter cone.

I was already using a Blitz Spec R boost controller and boost ceiling is set at 1.4 bar, the boost setting is nearing 1.35 bar under most circumstances.

The differences between the 19T and the KKK are minimal, a bit more push at the high end and spooling starts at 1600 RPM but very moderate. With a low gain setting of the controller the boost comes on very nice and only after 3500 RPM it really starts pushing.

Initial test runs showed a higher EGT when boost went beyond 1.2 bar. Yesterday I visited RICA. they hooked up a MOTEC wideband and we did some 150 mph+ test runs which revealed that lambda went up to 0.9 after 5000 RPM. After a remap lambda is now set between 0.8 and 0.85.

This using the stock fuel pump, stock FPR and white 350 cc injectors, ignition is MSD coil and magnecor 8.5 wires , relative new rotor and distributer cap and stock T5 plugs at the moment. EGT is down to where it used to be and no misfiring or hesitation or whatsoever.

The fuel system can handle the power, the injectors will do fine although for me they are at a level where I think the blue 395 CC would be a better choice (Over 300 dynojet wheel HP ). Problem is that the blues are not really suitable for a stock T5 FPR. The R uses a different FPR with lower base pressure.

[Johann]

Sorry to hijack this thread, but i have a UK 1996 850r auto with the 15g and a rica ecu. Im gonna be putting on a 18t and was wondering whether i also would need a remap?

regarding the lean condition higher up, if the bigger turbo's flow more, shouldnt the maf detect more air entering the engine and increase fueling?

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Yes you need a remap and RICA has them available, Adam could provide you the remap.

For the fueling, the ECU is picking from a fixed map at WOT above 4000 RPM so if the map doesn't have the correct info the engine will lean out.

[volflo]

Johann wrote:

"The 19T of my 850 was transplanted into an 850 T-5R belonging to a friend.

He also upgraded the orange injectors to white and RICA modified the chip a bit but couldn't get the boost behave well. This car is running a 19T with a 3" catless down pipe and a Ferrita catback.

In the end the boost was set at 1 bar up to 4500-5000 RPM and a bit higher after that..

After a test drive in 5th gear the boost just went up to 1.5 bar after 5000 RPM!

No way to get the ECU control the boost in a decent way. Eventually he installed a Blitz DSBC Spec S boost controller and now boost stays within limits."

1. Is there a way a MBC could provide the same, i mean a sort of "fuse" set to well 1.4 or so. And just for those occasion when the ECU cannot provide proper Holding of the boost, comes into action?

2. EGT ?

3. Difference between blitz Spec S and Spec R? Recommendation?

4. After all do you think it would be wiser to swap my 19T for a 18T? (tho i dont like that is does offer no boost below 4000.....)

Thanks Johann, i really appreciate those untiring efforts to really explain everything to the point.

[Guest Guest]

Johann wrote:

"The 19T of my 850 was transplanted into an 850 T-5R belonging to a friend.

He also upgraded the orange injectors to white and RICA modified the chip a bit but couldn't get the boost behave well. This car is running a 19T with a 3" catless down pipe and a Ferrita catback.

In the end the boost was set at 1 bar up to 4500-5000 RPM and a bit higher after that..

After a test drive in 5th gear the boost just went up to 1.5 bar after 5000 RPM!

No way to get the ECU control the boost in a decent way. Eventually he installed a Blitz DSBC Spec S boost controller and now boost stays within limits."

1. Is there a way a MBC could provide the same, i mean a sort of "fuse" set to well 1.4 or so. And just for those occasion when the ECU cannot provide proper Holding of the boost, comes into action?

I guess some sort of pop off valve could do a thing like that.

2. EGT ? 

Exhaust gas temperature. I have a gauge in the car. Up until this day I have never really heard what the correct temperatures are. It is also a matter of where the probe is placed in the system. I have mounted the probe in the downpipe just after the turbo flange. A/F was checked a few times at the time and the EGT gave certain values as a reference. After installing the KKK I saw that temps were a bit higher and it turned out the A/F was a bit to lean so the EGT does do it's job..

I want to change to a good A/F logger. I bought a wideband lambda reader from a company called Innovate motorsports. This is the same device Doug is using. It is a nice device but so far it didn't give me a good reading. Maybe the Lambda sensor is placed in the wrong spot or receiving false air?, still have to check. Compaired against a MOTEC wideband the Innovate was pretty much off the scale and way to erradic over the full rev band. It doesn't mean the Innovate is a bad device, like I said probably a bad install on my part. The device can also log some other inputs and some fun software comes with it. I like gadgets like that..

Next week I want to test a little further and make a fixed install in the car.

3. Difference between blitz Spec S and Spec R? Recommendation?

The control unit of the Spec S and R are the same. The difference is the solenoid valve mechanism. The Spec S comes with a flimsy single valve which operates the same way the Volvo solenoid does. You can replace the connections of the stock solenoid to the spec S valve. One for boost input, one for wastegate output and a bleed line. The valve itself is recommended for usage up to 1.2 bar of boost. One person at the Dutch 850 club figured that the valve can be replaced with a newer type Volvo solenoid which is much better quality and it tuned out that it works like a charm.

The Spec R used a dual solenoid mechanism without a bleed exit connection. This dual solenoid can work with higher boost levels up to 2.5 bar.

The spec S, maybe in combination with the ~60 Euro Volvo solenoid, is sufficient for most of the Volvo 850 applications.

4. After all do you think it would be wiser to swap my 19T for a 18T? (tho i dont like that is does offer no boost below 4000.....)

I have only driven 18T tuned 850's on a few occasions. To me it seems like the 18T behaves nearly the same as the straight flange turbine 16T's used on the older Volvo models. The difference is that the 18T doesn't drop off as drasticly as the 16T does at higher RPM. The 19T is a step higher over the full boost curve and also a smoother operating turbo. The 19T is also a turbo which is more difficult to control with the stock Volvo boost regulation when the boost goes beyond 1.2 bar.

From experience the performance of both turbo's up to a boost of ~1.2 bar is nearly identical.

The 19T gives a little more push under wider ambient conditions because it is a more efficient turbo.

Thanks Johann, i really appreciate those untiring efforts to really explain everything to the point.

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Hey, that is part of the Volvo hobby..

;)

[Johann]

Above reply was me..

( I really don't understand why guest access for posting isn't disabled on this site...)

[volflo]

i have driven a nicely dyno tuned 850 t5r with 18T and really thought the same thing: the difference in perfromance between the 18T and the 16T was not that big, whereas the character was. the 16T offered a lot more boost and "bite" below 4000 perhaps 4500. whereas the the 18T keept boost until 6000. But still with the 3" turbo back i liked the 16T performance better. Also since in every day driving u dont really wont to stay over 4500 all the time....

So one could almost that in most situations the 16T is perhaps quicker than the 18T.

[volflo]

Johann worte

"I guess some sort of pop off valve could do a thing like that. "

if u place a valve like that in line with control to the wategate. shouldnt that work?

So let the ECU do its job most of the time. And whenever the ECU is to slow to prevent overboost/ boost spikes the valve opens and prevents further stress/ damage/ leaning...

Do you of any source for a valve like that? Or what could be used as cuatom solution?

[Entuscan]

or take the big blue ones from the 265hp-R?

The injectors of the 265Bhp are GREEN not blue, i just checked under the hood.

As to 18T vs 19T, the flow rate of the 18T is 485cfm and the 19T is 500Cfm

In theorie based upon engineflowrate of a 2.3L engine both turbo's can handle almost everything you through at them.

The 19T has a wider flowrate-band since it was meant to be used on a 2.4L engine -> this flows more air at the same rpm and boost as the 2.3L engine.

These are some theoretical flowrates at certain boostlevels compared against the flowrates of the 16T, 18T and 19T turbo:

Values are from 2000->7000rpm in 1000rpm increasements.

Hope this makes some more sense. 16T just suudenly dies off @ higher boost and rpms. The 18T and 19T can deliver way more boost then needed @ low to midrange rpm.

IF you want to push +1.4Bar all the way to shiftpoint then the 19T is the only way to go. You'll need some hefty uprated internals to push those levels all the time though.

[turbor850]

The injectors of the 265Bhp are GREEN not blue, i just checked under the hood.

As to 18T vs 19T, the flow rate of the 18T is 485cfm and the 19T is 500Cfm

In theorie based upon engineflowrate of a 2.3L engine both turbo's can handle almost everything you through at them.

The 19T has a wider flowrate-band since it was meant to be used on a 2.4L engine -> this flows more air at the same rpm and boost as the 2.3L engine.

IF you want to push +1.4Bar all the way to shiftpoint then the 19T is the only way to go. You'll need some hefty uprated internals to push those levels all the time though.

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how about pushing 1.7 bar :ph34r:

[volflo]

im off to Nürburgring for the w.e. So i might not be able to respond until Monday.

Thanks all for now. This thread has devellpped as very useful, i hope also to a lot of others.

I hope the forum wont come down again, so this is saved. Really im gonna follow the stuff that has been discussed in here subsequently......

[Entuscan]

how about pushing 1.7 bar 

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1.9bar@4000rpm is possible ... for the turbo, no way the stock engine can hold it though ;)

[Guest matty]

So what sort of bhp will the 16t,18t and 19t each produce respectivly on a tuned engine?