swedishchef Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Hello-I've owned my 02 s60 AWD since new. It has been problematic almost since day one, but it has never left us stranded. It has been well maintained.Recently, car started with the CEL - needed an O2 sensor. Within a week or two, it came back on, so on went a new MAF. All of the ECM codes disappeared except 5200 - RPM Sensor.Have had no CEL for two weeks, just frequent flashes of Reduced Engine Performance both at startup [which sometimes is delayed] and when the pedal is mashed. Since my Wife & Kids use the car alot, and sensing impending doom, I took it to the Dealer.They pulled the 5200 code and they pulled out the sensor [code read intermittent fault]Sensor was covered in shavings - cleaning it brought it within a few ohms of spec.Told them to replace it while they had it out.Code went to permanent.They proceeded to use a fault tracer across the entire loom. At first they said they found a bad spot where they could get it to run crappy by manipulating the wires -- they ended up having to dissect and trace the wiring harness back to the ECU - found some corrosion on some pins which they cleaned off and reassembled.They had another 02 in [surprise!] and they swapped the ECU's and compared readings.They had already called Volvo HQ [which was slow to respond]; I ended up with a car that now idles like total crap, with the CEL on and Engine System Service Required Message on [i've never seen that one in the five+ years I've owned it].Flywheel [cracked or damaged]Corrosion between Trans and MotorI can't imagine turning it back over to these fellows given the condition of the car and the fact that if I give it to them it is with the knowledge that I'm on the hook for another $1800+ in labor. I just paid $500 for them to take my decent running car with an error message and make it into a crappy running car with three error messages.The main symptom they state is a weak signal from the RPM Sensor. The Tech even said he tried different grounding points.I stayed up late trying to learn about this, but I'm stumped. I asked them if it could be the battery; if the signal could be boosted with a capacitor or something. They just want to tear into the bottom end while the top end is a mess. How about relays?? Grounding Wires?? I have used this to jump a couple of tractors and bobcats [i realized this this morning when I saw how my strut brace is a bit "charred" from when I tried to use it as a ground. HELP, PleaseThanks,Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starfish Posted April 1, 2007 Report Share Posted April 1, 2007 I don't understand why there are metal shavings on your rpm sensor? Starting in the 2002 model year there is a copper washer underneath the rpm sensor bracket. This washer must be installed to make a ground path to eliminate electromagnetic disturbance caused by the starter motor. If this washer fell into the bellhousing it could certainly damage the sensor and pulse wheel. Was the transmission ever replaced? In the past some reman transmissions were shipped with too much paint on the bellhousing to engine flange. When this occured, a poor ground was introduced.Also, if the transmission was ever removed, check to see if there are any of the bellhousing to engine bolts missing. I've run across this problem on some Volvo's before with a similar code. It turns out the tech who replaced the trans figured "ah heck, that one little ol bolt is too hard to put back in and it ain't going to make a difference anyhow," so he left it out. The car later returned with a long engine cranking time and a CEL for an engine speed sensor. The bolt was recovered from the offender and reinstalled into the car and the problem was fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedishchef Posted April 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 First off, thanks very much for replying.I don't quite get the "fuzz" as they called it that was on the sensor. I do not think it was alot of material. The tiny sample I saw looked like aluminum [non-magnetic, of course] or some kind of pot metal. I didn't see rust color to it. The starter has never mis-engaged or ground in any way. A visual inspection of the ring gear showed now significant wear. The main bearing does not have excessive play. There was a "ding" in the old sensor.Everything is virgin from the factory - the trans. has never been swapped. I don't think they know anything about the copper washer. I'll find out Monday if there was one on there when they first pulled it. I'm starting to think it might be the rectifier on the alternator or a bad ground wire. What would you do next in my position - I don't want to pull the trans. just on the say-so of that particular dealer. Say the old washer did fall in, is there a fix that doesn't involve dropping the trans.?Thanks,-BrianI don't understand why there are metal shavings on your rpm sensor? Starting in the 2002 model year there is a copper washer underneath the rpm sensor bracket. This washer must be installed to make a ground path to eliminate electromagnetic disturbance caused by the starter motor. If this washer fell into the bellhousing it could certainly damage the sensor and pulse wheel. Was the transmission ever replaced? In the past some reman transmissions were shipped with too much paint on the bellhousing to engine flange. When this occured, a poor ground was introduced.Also, if the transmission was ever removed, check to see if there are any of the bellhousing to engine bolts missing. I've run across this problem on some Volvo's before with a similar code. It turns out the tech who replaced the trans figured "ah heck, that one little ol bolt is too hard to put back in and it ain't going to make a difference anyhow," so he left it out. The car later returned with a long engine cranking time and a CEL for an engine speed sensor. The bolt was recovered from the offender and reinstalled into the car and the problem was fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starfish Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 First off, thanks very much for replying.I don't quite get the "fuzz" as they called it that was on the sensor. I do not think it was alot of material. The tiny sample I saw looked like aluminum [non-magnetic, of course] or some kind of pot metal. I didn't see rust color to it. The starter has never mis-engaged or ground in any way. A visual inspection of the ring gear showed now significant wear. The main bearing does not have excessive play. There was a "ding" in the old sensor.Everything is virgin from the factory - the trans. has never been swapped. I don't think they know anything about the copper washer. I'll find out Monday if there was one on there when they first pulled it. I'm starting to think it might be the rectifier on the alternator or a bad ground wire. What would you do next in my position - I don't want to pull the trans. just on the say-so of that particular dealer. Say the old washer did fall in, is there a fix that doesn't involve dropping the trans.?Thanks,-BrianThe sensor is a magnetic switch and will pick up metallic dust flying off the ring gear and starter drive. None of that is your problem.Your problem is a loss of signal to the ECU. Signal strength comes from the sensor. If the copper washer is missing, see my prior post.Your electrical chasing of alternators and ground wires have nothing to do with a missing sensor signal. STOP THERE and refocus your attention on the sensor and its wiring to the ECU.Why was there a big ding in the old sensor? Can you post a picture? Is the new sensor dinged now too?Who is working on this car you or the dealer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedishchef Posted April 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 Hello Again,I spoke yesterday with the service mgr. at the Dealer [Volvo Dealer with three or four locations]. He insists that the the RPM sensor sits in a plastic sleeve, so putting in a copper washer would be irrelevent. Their parts guy found one that fits correctly and sat it aside for me.Svc. Mgr. says that the flywheel needs to be replaced. Offers no convincing reasoning why I should drop the trans. and $$$ other than "that's what it needs". I'm taking it to another shop regardless -- I don't think they deserve the money one way or the other -- I wish I could find someone who I could trust to work on the car honestly.The car is missing terribly since they tampered with the wiring harness. Really running terribly. I'm not really qualified to work on it [maybe 75% or so] due to the computerized stuff.The sensor really does sit in a plastic backet and it seems to be intact. The wires to the sensor probably do need to be replaced, but the Dealer didn't do it when they tore everything apart. I poked around with my multimeter yesterday and found that the alternator is bleeding off about 200mV AC into the system and started off charging at 15.2 amps DC before dropping to 13.9 - 14.2. I'm going in an hour or two to get the codes pulled and see what the computers say is going on. I did find a vacuum line off and eveything was put back together half-assed if at all, but it didn't help the idle quality.Is there a way to diagnose the reference wheel part of the flywheel without dropping the trans? How likely is a flywheel failure on a 2002 s60 with 140k?Thanks again,Brian The sensor is a magnetic switch and will pick up metallic dust flying off the ring gear and starter drive. None of that is your problem.Your problem is a loss of signal to the ECU. Signal strength comes from the sensor. If the copper washer is missing, see my prior post.Your electrical chasing of alternators and ground wires have nothing to do with a missing sensor signal. STOP THERE and refocus your attention on the sensor and its wiring to the ECU.Why was there a big ding in the old sensor? Can you post a picture? Is the new sensor dinged now too?Who is working on this car you or the dealer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedishchef Posted April 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2007 OK-Stopped at the dealer and got the codes pulled.Reading:ECM 5200 RPM Sensor - PermanentECM 641A CAM SENSOR - Intermittent [low # frequency]ECM 1300 AIR FLOW - Intermittent [low # frequency - has a brand new MAF]According to the Svc. Mgr. [at the same dealer] the 641A and 1300 are resulting from the computer trying to compensate for the bad RPM sensor signal.One thing I don't get is if it could be beneficial to replace the plastic bracket that the RPM sensor sits in or to try using washers [copper or otherwise] to move the RPM sensor further over in the hole??Should I just replace the wires between the RPM sensor and the ECU even though they say the wires are OK?Thanks,Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWinkey Posted April 6, 2007 Report Share Posted April 6, 2007 Lions and tigers and bears...OH MY......Honestly this is a tough one and it's really tough to add any input without puttin your hands on the car..I know that's not the answer your looking for..I will ask how many miles? I will also ask (don't flame me just answer) have you ever replaced the spark plugs and when did this problem start. You have replaced the MAF but what were your original codes? Personally I agree I really don't see the crank trigger causing this. Sometimes simple things wreak havoc on electrical systems and the puter freaks out because it's not sure as to what it's seeing so it spits out miss leading codes. However I could be totally wrong ,but I want to start from the top?Wait never mind you said 140kl...missed that after another review...ok when were the plugs replaced and when did this issue start? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedishchef Posted April 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2007 Hello & thanks for jumping in. I'm in PA also - Bucks County. I have new plugs in a box waiting to go in - I actually do not think they have ever been changed. If that might help then I'll move it to the top of my list.When the car first started running like a slug and I think the CEL was on, I had it scanned and the following codes came up:1/31/07SWM-0021 Scan Button Activated Too Long [the steering wheel audio if I remember right] - INTERMITTENTCCM-001F Air Quality sensor Signal too High [from lint in the dash vent sensor] INTERMITTENTECM-6805 Turbocharger (TC) control system boost pressure fault - Pressure too high - PERMANENTECM-5200 RPM Sensor - Signal too low - INTERMITTENT occurrence 0/82ECM-260A Long-term fuel trim, bank 1 - Upper limit - PERMANENTAfter replacing the Boost controller but not the MAF [because I wasn't sure it was bad] - it ran alot better [no more slug at 4k RPM - would run out nicely], but CEL came on for certain - SWM-0021 Scan Button Activated too long - Intermittent 0/237CEM-E000 Control Module communication Faulty communication [no status given - blank; engine not running; voltage 11.75]DDM-002B Mirror motor MC signal too low [no status-blank; 0/54; temp 0deg; engine running]CCM-001F Air Quality sensor Signal too High [from lint in the dash vent sensor] INTERMITTENTECM-5200 RPM Sensor - Signal too low - INTERMITTENT occurrence 0/102ECM-260A Long-term fuel trim, bank 1 - Upper limit - PERMANENTSymptoms now are vicious rough idle, Engine System Service Required, CEL and Reduced Engine Performance Light are on. Runs like it has bad gas. Can the flywheel possibly be shot like I've been told? I just don't get how since it has never been touched.I will change the plugs ASAP.Thank you Thank you.Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedishchef Posted April 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2007 Oh, I forgot to mention that immediately after I replaced the MAF, the CEL came on [it had been off for 2 wks or so - go figure] I stopped at an Autozone to clear it - they pulled code 2711 - Low fuel at startup.the Dealer had never even heard of that one??As for when it started, it has flashed "reduced Engine Performace" sporadically almost since new. They never could find and codes or anything to substantiate anything.At 99,000 into the 100k warranty, the 5200 code came up and they replaced the RPM sensor [same Dealer that f'ed it up this time - I'm a slow learner, I guess]. That was the first time the RPM Sensor code showed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWinkey Posted April 7, 2007 Report Share Posted April 7, 2007 Hello & thanks for jumping in. I'm in PA also - Bucks County. I have new plugs in a box waiting to go in - I actually do not think they have ever been changed. If that might help then I'll move it to the top of my list.When the car first started running like a slug and I think the CEL was on, I had it scanned and the following codes came up:1/31/07SWM-0021 Scan Button Activated Too Long [the steering wheel audio if I remember right] - INTERMITTENTCCM-001F Air Quality sensor Signal too High [from lint in the dash vent sensor] INTERMITTENTECM-6805 Turbocharger (TC) control system boost pressure fault - Pressure too high - PERMANENTECM-5200 RPM Sensor - Signal too low - INTERMITTENT occurrence 0/82ECM-260A Long-term fuel trim, bank 1 - Upper limit - PERMANENTAfter replacing the Boost controller but not the MAF [because I wasn't sure it was bad] - it ran alot better [no more slug at 4k RPM - would run out nicely], but CEL came on for certain - SWM-0021 Scan Button Activated too long - Intermittent 0/237CEM-E000 Control Module communication Faulty communication [no status given - blank; engine not running; voltage 11.75]DDM-002B Mirror motor MC signal too low [no status-blank; 0/54; temp 0deg; engine running]CCM-001F Air Quality sensor Signal too High [from lint in the dash vent sensor] INTERMITTENTECM-5200 RPM Sensor - Signal too low - INTERMITTENT occurrence 0/102ECM-260A Long-term fuel trim, bank 1 - Upper limit - PERMANENTSymptoms now are vicious rough idle, Engine System Service Required, CEL and Reduced Engine Performance Light are on. Runs like it has bad gas. Can the flywheel possibly be shot like I've been told? I just don't get how since it has never been touched.I will change the plugs ASAP.Thank you Thank you.Brian How did you get those codes...Dealer I assume?Use O.E plugs not aftermarket,actually if you have had it since 100k and no tune period do a 150k service(full tune)....The reason I asked about the plugs as I have seen plugs replaced and the coil pack wires being chaffed or punctured resulting in blown fuses crazy codes and electricial feedback.Personally??? I doubt it's a flywheel issue especially if the basic's have not been covered,I see this quite a bit BASICS FIRST Dealer has trouble converting P codes and that is what Autozone gave you. Their description on the scan tool is generic and does not apply to all vehicles. I thought this problem was corrected when the government made OBDII standard in 96..However here we are back to the same issues we had with OBD I?Hope this info helps and once again I could be totally wrong..If I'm right I'll send ya' a bill :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokin' T5M Posted April 7, 2007 Report Share Posted April 7, 2007 I agree check the coils. They crack down the sides under the rubber boot. Very easy to see at the top of the coil under the boot. Have they checked timing at all. With the VVt things get very picky about timing and emissions. Drivability becomes an issue? I have to say this is definitely an odd set of circumstances. Love to hear the end result of this. After reading more the harness is damage by the RPM sensor correct? I only ask cause it seems to be odd that the code would go perm after replaced. Also have you tried a battery reset (15 min battery disconnected with the clamps touching) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedishchef Posted April 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2007 They insist that the harness tested OK and that the signal was weak from the sensor itself.That is the confusing part - could I be the first person with a flywheel that has gone kaput with the engine & trans. never having been separated?What about this copper washer?Does the bracket look like it is sitting the right way in the hole [are you supposed to see a gap, or should it be sealed]?You guys are great - the coils are a likely culprit that I'll check today or tomm. -- I suggested this to the dealer and they replied that it would have stored a code if they were bad. Seems like they depend too much on the computers and not enough on old-fashioned mechanic sense.Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starfish Posted April 7, 2007 Report Share Posted April 7, 2007 swedishchef - You originally stated the following, "They pulled the 5200 code and they pulled out the sensor [code read intermittent fault]Sensor was covered in shavings - cleaning it brought it within a few ohms of spec.Told them to replace it while they had it out.Code went to permanent."After reading of your issue this Volvo service TechNet Note came to mind. NO: 21-16DATE: 5-1-2002MODEL/YEAR: S/V 70 S 60 MY 2002 Turbocharged Engine, Automatic TransmissionSUBJECT: Copper Washer, Engine Speed Sensor BracketAt the start of model year 2002 production, a copper washer was introduced as part of theEngine Speed Sensor Mounting bracket. The washer is located beneath the bracket,sandwiched between the bracket and the Transmission bell housing. When removing theEngine Speed Sensor or the Transmission, caution should be used to ensure the washerdoes not fall into the bell housing or become misplaced. The copper washer MUST bereinstalled. The reason for the washer is to provide a ground path to reduce electro magneticdisturbance caused by the high amperage draw of the starter motor.SERVICE:If the washer becomes misplaced or damaged, replacements are available, P/N 30637914.TIP; when installing the washer attach a thin string (fishing line) to the washer to prevent itfrom falling into the bell housing. In the event that the washer accidentally enters the bellhousing it must be removed or damage to the Engine Speed Sensor and pulse wheel willresult. Should this occur, removal of the oil sump is recommended rather then removal of theTransmission.You started with the code ECM-5200 RPM Sensor - Signal too low - INTERMITTENT occurrence 0/102It did not go permanent until they removed the sensor true or false? The sensor started out dirty which being magnetic is ok. The service manager seems to know little to nothing about the copper washer and its need.Has the new sensor been damaged by the flywheel?You have a ECM-260A Long-term fuel trim, bank 1 - Upper limit - PERMANENT code.What did they do about that?Stick with the code. Do not go chasing after other parts as being the source of a engine speed sensor fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedishchef Posted April 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2007 Hi Starfish - that TNN is the EUREKA moment of this whole mess as long as the washer had been installed on my car. The pisser is that this same dealership replaced the RPM sensor under warranty @ 99,000. No doubt they dropped in down the hole and caused all of this. I need to check with my wife about the "Reduced Engine Performance" message and whether it always happened or just since the 100k mark. For awhile she drove it alot more frequently than me.If I get the oil pan pulled for access and find the remnants of the original copper washer, what good will that do me? The pulse wheel is probably shot, right?So the copper waher would fill in the air gap that you can see in the pictures of the sensor? As for the interference from the starter motor, wouldn't there only be interference when the motor was turning over?The only codes it has now [as of last Thursday]:ECM 5200 RPM Sensor - PermanentECM 641A CAM SENSOR - Intermittent [low # frequency]ECM 1300 AIR FLOW - Intermittent [low # frequency - has a brand new eaby MAF that could be a rip-off]They know nothing about the copper washer [and were pretty rude about it "where would it go - it sits in a plastic bracket, what good would it do for your problem", blah blah blah]I have not pulled the new one to see if it is dented. The actual tech who did the work said that he had the sensor on a scope and it was producing a weak signal. I went over to Volvo and that TNN doesn't seem to be in their library - any idea if there is a break in the VIN?Does anyone ever succeed in getting Volvo to cover work that was misdiagnosed or screwed up during warranty? My Haldex has been shot for years and I've been complaining on the record about it - my car has the trans. valve body problems that I tried over and over to get fixed. I just gave up - they wore me out with the repeated refrain or "no, that's normal" and such.Thank you VERY MUCHBrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedishchef Posted April 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2007 Hello again-I started a new thread, but didn't want to drop this one. I got the washer installed. Nada. Having watched it be installed close-up, I must say that the old one is almost certainly in the bellhousing. code immediately back to 5200. Pulse wheel has to be damaged? Svc.Mgr. said that with an oscilloscope directly to the sensor, they only got a very weak/flat sine waveAny more thoughts, or is it time to pull the motor?Changed plugs with OEM's, checking coils with a coil checker.Car runs BAD.Help.swedishchef - You originally stated the following, "They pulled the 5200 code and they pulled out the sensor [code read intermittent fault]Sensor was covered in shavings - cleaning it brought it within a few ohms of spec.Told them to replace it while they had it out.Code went to permanent."After reading of your issue this Volvo service TechNet Note came to mind. NO: 21-16DATE: 5-1-2002MODEL/YEAR: S/V 70 S 60 MY 2002 Turbocharged Engine, Automatic TransmissionSUBJECT: Copper Washer, Engine Speed Sensor BracketAt the start of model year 2002 production, a copper washer was introduced as part of theEngine Speed Sensor Mounting bracket. The washer is located beneath the bracket,sandwiched between the bracket and the Transmission bell housing. When removing theEngine Speed Sensor or the Transmission, caution should be used to ensure the washerdoes not fall into the bell housing or become misplaced. The copper washer MUST bereinstalled. The reason for the washer is to provide a ground path to reduce electro magneticdisturbance caused by the high amperage draw of the starter motor.SERVICE:If the washer becomes misplaced or damaged, replacements are available, P/N 30637914.TIP; when installing the washer attach a thin string (fishing line) to the washer to prevent itfrom falling into the bell housing. In the event that the washer accidentally enters the bellhousing it must be removed or damage to the Engine Speed Sensor and pulse wheel willresult. Should this occur, removal of the oil sump is recommended rather then removal of theTransmission.You started with the code ECM-5200 RPM Sensor - Signal too low - INTERMITTENT occurrence 0/102It did not go permanent until they removed the sensor true or false? The sensor started out dirty which being magnetic is ok. The service manager seems to know little to nothing about the copper washer and its need.Has the new sensor been damaged by the flywheel?You have a ECM-260A Long-term fuel trim, bank 1 - Upper limit - PERMANENT code.What did they do about that?Stick with the code. Do not go chasing after other parts as being the source of a engine speed sensor fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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