Dual Brand Headunits

[Owned]

OK, well I realized, I know much less about car audio than most people on these forums, I'm just getting a feel for it.

Can someone recommend audio components for me? Or should I start a new thread?

I really want to spend about $500 total maybe a bit more with a new headunit, front doors speakers, and rear deck speakers. I think I'll just leave the rest of them or take them out (rear door/front deck). I'd like the rear deck speakers to be pretty large, enough to get some nice bass out of (So I can feel it, and I don't need to buy a sub... I don't listen to music like rap that really focuses on the bass.. More like swing and rockabilly where I like to hear a prominent bass but don't need it that insanely loud). I also want good sound from the unit.. probably no more than $200 on the unit, like I said above... hopefully ipod compatible.

Also, I saw a Polk 5 1/4" component system ($99) and 6 1/2" component ($119), and the prices seemed good at Circuit City. I still don't totally understand a component system, but I don't know if the guy there does either. He said a headunit may under power it... the best sound will come from an amp (obviously)... I won't really notice that it sounds good just off of the headunit, and under powering it may blow it. Is this valid

Well I'd appreciate input/help. Thanks.

Most aftermarket speakers are rated at 4 ohms. Almost all aftermarket HUs and even the stock Volvo unit, are rated at 4 ohms. This means that when you upgrade two sets of speakers in the car, the other two sets have to be removed or at least unplugged. That should clear up your first issue.

It's going to be tough to get a set of 5x7's or even 6x9's to give you a great amount of bass, they just aren't really made to do that. Most people think they can, based on the size. It's also tough to get a good amount of bass with just HU power.

I don't know if this will interest you, but it is possible to get a LOT of bass with small and cheap subwoofers. You can get a single Dayton 8 inch sub, for roughly $50 or maybe even less if memory serves, and use what's known as an ABC or tri-chamber box. This type of enclosure is going to be fairly big and will also take some work to build as it's somewhat complex, but with literally $50 in your sub, a cheap $100 amp, and $25 worth of MDF, glue, and screws, you can create bass as loud if not louder than your friends running 12's and 15's. I have made over 120 dB with a single 6.5 inch sub and almost 140 with an 8 using this method. You might want to search on google for ABC enclosure patterns which will make the job much easier if you decide you want to go this route, but at the very least, it will show you what it's all about.

In terms of iPod compatibility, if the unit has an aux-in, it will work with your iPod even if it doesn't actually say iPod-ready or anything else of that nature on the box. As long as there is a way to plug in an external source, you will be fine. It may mean that you have to buy an additional adapter if the aux-in is for instance, an RCA pair, but it will still allow you to use your iPod. The other side of terms like 'iPod-ready' is that sometimes it really just means that the HU supports external sources and you still have to buy an adapter to use one. Kenwood is famous for this. They have an iPod adapter that works in most of the HUs, but never comes with them, meaning you almost always have to buy it separately.

A coax speaker is a mid/full range speaker paired with a tweeter in one unit with an internal crossover. A component set is a matched pair of a mid/full-range speaker and a tweeter that are separate from each other and usually use an external crossover. As a result of actually being three (sometimes more) modular pieces, there is more room for better electronics in the crossover which means you have better power handling, and more sound processing ability. The speakers also are given more room and benefit from this because you do not have the tweeter taking up cone area and air space from the mid and the tweeter can be larger/better constructed.

It is true that under powering a speaker can damage it. This is much more likely to happen to a sub than a comp set, but it technically is possible. Because the movements of a speakers cones are directly related to the signal waves it receives, if the wave is cut short (clipping), the cone will not move. The way almost all speakers cool their voice coils is by passing air over them when they move. If your signal is clipped, the speaker doesn't move, which means the coil can potentially over-heat if there is enough clipping going on, because no air is being moved over it.

Your headunit does not have enough wattage to fully power most of the component sets available. To be honest, I don't think I've ever seen one rated for under 50 RMS. Even though a comp set is superior to a coax speaker, the fact that you just don't have the power it needs to sound it's best means that it is not what you want. It will cost more than a coax set and probably sound worse, at least in your case. There is a minuscule chance that you will over heat it, also.

To break this down for you, if my budget was $500, I would spend:

$175 on a small amp, sub, and ABC box, make it yourself to save on labor since it's not that hard, especially since you can print out templates.

$200 on a HU that has an aux-in port of some sort, meets the basic points I posted earlier, and has a sub or 'non-fader' set of RCAs.

This leaves you with a slush fund of $75, given an allotment of $50 for install accessories like wiring.

At this point, you don't need rear speakers since having highs (tweeters) come from behind your seat is bad for SQ and you will have the bass you desire from your sub setup. This means your extra $75 can go toward either a better set of fronts than the Sony's, or possibly something else like satellite radio.

[NGB]

There we go, awesome answer Adam, thanks for typing it all out, i was really pressed for time...and way lazy.

[skazzunk]

WOW, thanks for all of that info, that really helped a lot. If you're suggesting a sub and small amp, do you think I should get an amp that has a few extra channels and save up for some decent comp speakers? Would you say that one set of nice front component speakers could really help with SQ (rather than a set of four nice coax speakers) pending the purchase of a 3 channel or 4 channel amp for a little bit more money? Well talking myself out of it now... I guess that getting the amp just for the sub won't necessarily mean that it's got great sound quality... just enough to increase the wattage for the sub, so I guess an increase in quality will cost more than I'm willing to spend?

Your plan seems good though. If I was willing to spend more on two front coax's and two other speakers, which two should I replace if I do the sub, small amp, new HU?

Again, thanks so much for the info, I really do appreciate it. This forum had helped me a lot on the mechanical end, and now i'm starting to get my bearing on the audio end.

-Matt

EDIT: can anyone suggest a specific design on a tri-chamber or ABC box? I've found several, but I haven't really seen any featuring a single woofer, most involve several. I may not mind two smaller ones, though, who knows, it all depends on the prices/what doesn't look too bad.

[dnapunk]

I also looked at that Dual unit when it first came out. I was impressed by the features and such but remained skeptical. In the end I bought an Alpine 9856. One of my friends owns that Dual HU and told me within 6 months, the motorized face stopped working. Funny how now Walmart carries that HU and none of the display model motors work either. I bought the Alpine because it has the Ipod control in it and also let's you add a stereo line for any other input devices you may have.

Just my added $.01+$.01

-Mike

[Owned]

WOW, thanks for all of that info, that really helped a lot. If you're suggesting a sub and small amp, do you think I should get an amp that has a few extra channels and save up for some decent comp speakers? Would you say that one set of nice front component speakers could really help with SQ (rather than a set of four nice coax speakers) pending the purchase of a 3 channel or 4 channel amp for a little bit more money? Well talking myself out of it now... I guess that getting the amp just for the sub won't necessarily mean that it's got great sound quality... just enough to increase the wattage for the sub, so I guess an increase in quality will cost more than I'm willing to spend?

Your plan seems good though. If I was willing to spend more on two front coax's and two other speakers, which two should I replace if I do the sub, small amp, new HU?

Again, thanks so much for the info, I really do appreciate it. This forum had helped me a lot on the mechanical end, and now i'm starting to get my bearing on the audio end.

-Matt

EDIT: can anyone suggest a specific design on a tri-chamber or ABC box? I've found several, but I haven't really seen any featuring a single woofer, most involve several. I may not mind two smaller ones, though, who knows, it all depends on the prices/what doesn't look too bad.

A set of comps in the front is definitely better than two sets of coaxs.

You don't want highs (coax has tweets) coming from behind you. When you're at a concert, music comes from in front of you, it may echo off what's behind you, too, but your ears can tell that the real sound source is in front of you.

Comps in a sealed enclosure will also produce good mid-bass, far better than a coax speaker.

Yes you can buy a better quality sub, but for your purposes I don't think you need a high-end setup. The cheaper offerings should be enough to please you as long as you keep in mind that you're not looking for mind blowing performance.

If you want to buy a sub, you should not put speakers in the rear deck. In fact, you should remove the stock ones even if they are unplugged. This will allow air to pass through the holes in the deck.

If you try to run both rear deck speakers and a sub in your trunk, they will be competing over the available air and the sub is going to win, which means the rear deck speakers performance is going to suffer. If you must have two sets of coaxs and want a sub, you would have to do the rear doors. This is not a good plan, though. For good SQ, your fader should be roughly 75% forward as a base line, then adjusted from there.

Most tri-chambers do use a pair of drivers, but people vary the design for single, or sometimes even four drivers. You can purchase a pair of low price 6.5" subs and use a twin driver plan for about the same money. This may be the easier route for you.

[paulr]

Damn Adam I haven't seen anyone break it down like that in a while. Nice explanations.

Personally I'd steer him more in the direction of a ported 10 or sealed 12 to keep construction simple and SQ up. Will require a more expensive speaker and amp, though. If you're trying to sell him on the small driver setup how about some good ole EU700's (or 7kv2 or whatever the hell they are now). That'd rock. Basically everything else I agree with.

I've never used a built-in amp on a pioneer HU but their audio quality in general rocks. Alpine and Clarion are good, but some people don't like the alpine UI like said above. Second staying away from the "dual". They're right that any HU that support "aux in" will WORK with an ipod, but an ipod kit that connects with the dock connector and can transmit song info has a very nice bling factor. Throw the ipod in the glove box, and have it just "work" through your HU. MP3 support is nice too. I can fit 200 songs on a CD (or 1000 on a DVD) and that rocks.

Good luck!

[Owned]

I thought about the EU-700, but they're a bit more than the Dayton 8", which is actually a good, cheap driver. That's also part of why I didn't go to a sealed 10 or 12. It's going to bring the cost up, but also I think it would be cool to see some better than 'normal' projects going on around here.

There are several million ways you could go about doing this, what I suggested is only one.

[paulr]

Just seemed like a tough design for what I'm guessing is his first build (since he's in highschool). But you're right it'd be interesting to see, and would be a lot of boom for the $ if built right. Couldn't find any prebuilt generic templates on the internet, ready for print or otherwise, but I only searched for a few mins. Found one on icix for 9Kv.2s - but I don't know how that'd scale to an 8" or 7". Or were you thinking design one from scratch with boxplot or something? Really found that post on the dual's manual amusing, though .

And to the origional post: don't forget about eBay... if you're careful, there are good deals to be had there.

[Owned]

I used to have a book with ABC forumlas for given speaker specs. Now would be the first time in 5 years that it would be useful.

ED has at least three or four ABC plans for their 6.5s on their site. I don't know of many specific sources for ready made plans as I don't need them, but I have seen them a few times on various sites, including ICIX, actually.

BTW, when I say print out the template, I don't mean it will be 1:1, unless you have a plotter.

[JA VOLVO]

Thanks Owned! This one thread answered a bunch of questions I dd not know I had about speakers. Thanks for taking the time.

[skazzunk]

Again, thanks, great responses. What is ED? (spelled out.. I'm guessing the intials for a speaker box company I should know).

In July or August, I think I would have no problem building a box. Right now, I'm a good bit through building an electric guitar, and that's gotta be just as complicated and precise, if not more, than building a decent sub box. Plus, I have a lot of resources at this local warehouse where a guy'll help me use his tools and build these kinds of things.

I'm thinking if I go the Subwoofer route, I could go for as mentioned in one post, two 6.5" with one of the more common designs that I've found (http://www.diysubwoofers.org/bnd/trichamberbp.htm) That design has come up a lot. I have a lot of questions about the boxes, but I think searching will probably be better than continuing to ask more and more questions. It WOULD actually be nice to try a difficult design that would pay off, but I'm not seeing any clearly illustrated. We'll see.

I'm thinking of possibly going with 2 really good pairs of used coax speakers (2 in the front doors, 2 in the rear) rather than the components... just because I want good quality, but then I'm just spending more money than I want to... including a larger amp.

One more question though regarding headunits. Anyone had any experience with panasonic headunits? I put a link on the first page about a specific panasonic headunit, and I was wondering if anyone has owned/used one. The only feature that may not be up to par is the voltage with 2.5 volts preamp output. I did see a nice pioneer at 4 volts in my price range with similar features, I'm still hung up on what to get. Then again, I should take my time and compare my top choices side by side.

Thanks to all of you who chimed in so far.

[paulr]

Again, thanks, great responses. What is ED? (spelled out.. I'm guessing the intials for a speaker box company I should know).

The kind of ED Adam and I are talking about is Elemental Designs. They make decent products in general, but are best known for a 7" sub. Adam says you'll probably be better off cost wise with an 8" from another manufacturer. Never heard of it, but you probably won't go wrong with either choice. Coincidentally, the only ABC enclosure I could find with all the tuning numbers worked out (very important) was for another one of their subs, a 9". Unrelated, it seems ED is selling DLS stuff on their website (another fine brand, at least for amps). Makes me feel good about snagging my DLS A3 for $300 shipped .

In July or August, I think I would have no problem building a box. Right now, I'm a good bit through building an electric guitar, and that's gotta be just as complicated and precise, if not more, than building a decent sub box. Plus, I have a lot of resources at this local warehouse where a guy'll help me use his tools and build these kinds of things.

I'm thinking if I go the Subwoofer route, I could go for as mentioned in one post, two 6.5" with one of the more common designs that I've found (http://www.diysubwoofers.org/bnd/trichamberbp.htm) That design has come up a lot. I have a lot of questions about the boxes, but I think searching will probably be better than continuing to ask more and more questions. It WOULD actually be nice to try a difficult design that would pay off, but I'm not seeing any clearly illustrated. We'll see.

If you go that route you'd have a more advanced sub box than 95% of the people on this forum (including me), so it wouldn't surprise me if you had questions. Just remember that the more advanced the design, the more precision matters (building the box to the TS parameters of the driver). You'll need to look up online how to do this. Computer software exists to help you, but I don't know how helpful it will be with a design like this (since I've never tried). It's VERY important you factor in the characteristics of your woofer when building your box however, otherwise it won't sound good at all.

I'm thinking of possibly going with 2 really good pairs of used coax speakers (2 in the front doors, 2 in the rear) rather than the components... just because I want good quality, but then I'm just spending more money than I want to... including a larger amp.

One more question though regarding headunits. Anyone had any experience with panasonic headunits? I put a link on the first page about a specific panasonic headunit, and I was wondering if anyone has owned/used one. The only feature that may not be up to par is the voltage with 2.5 volts preamp output. I did see a nice pioneer at 4 volts in my price range with similar features, I'm still hung up on what to get. Then again, I should take my time and compare my top choices side by side.

Thanks to all of you who chimed in so far.

Adam's advice (I didn't read every paragraph word-for-word) seems a little contradictory with speakers, so I'll give my own. Component speakers will sound better if powered right, but will need the extra power to truly shine above coaxials. If you're planning on upgrading to an amp later, I would go ahead and get component speakers for up front now (or whenever you upgrade from stock - noone says you have to do this the same time you get your HU if money is tight). If you're not planning on running an amp, get coaxials. But, don't buy speakers you KNOW you're going to be upgrading later. Also, don't try and run your speakers and subs off the same amp - sure, it can be done, but the sound quality of the amp will matter a lot more with speakers. This makes selecting an amp more difficult. The details could occupy an entire thread for themselves, but simply, don't do it. Also, you don't want your rear to be as loud as your front, especially with high frequency. I thought everyone was I'm dumbting me on this, until I got myself kickpods. Now whenever I go in someone's car with a strong rear presence I get a headache. Sticking with stock size and locations means you'll probably eventually stick something in the rear doors for more midbass, but it doesn't need to have as much quality as what's up front, shouldn't be as loud, and shouldn't have a tweeter. Also, rear door speakers are not exactly 5.25" (they're oval, from 6" to 6.5", IIRC) making fitment interesting. There will be gaps with a 5.25", and cutting is required for a 6.5". Adam and I managed to fit EU700's in our rear doors, but it's by no means drop in (well, his way is a little easier than mine).

Also, the chances of blowing any decent speakers off a headunit are pretty damn low... most of them just can't produce the necessary power to do any real damage, at least to good speakers. Clipping is very bad for speakers both mechanically and electrically, but at 13 watts per channel you'd have to work real hard to do be real dangerous. Also, if you know what clipping sounds like, it's pretty damn easy to spot, especially at dangerous levels, and lowering the volume to where the speaker is no longer clipping removes the risk.

The parameters Adam discussed are a helluva lot more important than how a HU looks or what features it has, etc. 4V preamp outputs did so much for my sound quality... If you EVER plan on running component amps it's all but essential, even for your sub amp it will be nice. If you cut corners now, you'll probably be replacing it later. I just say go slow, get good things as you can afford them, and not have to worry about replacing them, etc.

[Owned]

Again, thanks, great responses. What is ED? (spelled out.. I'm guessing the intials for a speaker box company I should know).

In July or August, I think I would have no problem building a box. Right now, I'm a good bit through building an electric guitar, and that's gotta be just as complicated and precise, if not more, than building a decent sub box. Plus, I have a lot of resources at this local warehouse where a guy'll help me use his tools and build these kinds of things.

I'm thinking if I go the Subwoofer route, I could go for as mentioned in one post, two 6.5" with one of the more common designs that I've found (http://www.diysubwoofers.org/bnd/trichamberbp.htm) That design has come up a lot. I have a lot of questions about the boxes, but I think searching will probably be better than continuing to ask more and more questions. It WOULD actually be nice to try a difficult design that would pay off, but I'm not seeing any clearly illustrated. We'll see.

I'm thinking of possibly going with 2 really good pairs of used coax speakers (2 in the front doors, 2 in the rear) rather than the components... just because I want good quality, but then I'm just spending more money than I want to... including a larger amp.

One more question though regarding headunits. Anyone had any experience with panasonic headunits? I put a link on the first page about a specific panasonic headunit, and I was wondering if anyone has owned/used one. The only feature that may not be up to par is the voltage with 2.5 volts preamp output. I did see a nice pioneer at 4 volts in my price range with similar features, I'm still hung up on what to get. Then again, I should take my time and compare my top choices side by side.

Thanks to all of you who chimed in so far.

ED is Elemental Designs. They make many products, most of which are not very good. They do make a nice 6.5" sub, though. I run two in my 850 and I think Paul has four of them. Last year these 6.5's hit IIRC 147 dB in a tri-chamber box. Granted it was a purely dB setup, with more wattage than the speakers could withstand given normal listening, but it still shows that they are pretty capable little drivers.

I'd honestly suggest that you only put coax speakers in the front doors and NOT put anything in the rear doors or deck. Think of when you're at a concert, your ears can tell the music is in front of you, because that's the only source. Having the sub behind you is not a huge issue unless you're competing in SQ, because bass is omnidirectional.

Panasonics aren't too bad if you're buying from higher in the line. I used to sell their bottom of the barrel HUs just to have something at that price point.

If you really like a unit, but the only draw back is the voltage, you can always pickup a line driver to have as much voltage as your equipment can handle, plus the HU you like.

[Owned]

Good info Paul, didn't see your post while I was doing mine.

[paulr]

Can't let you have all the fun, can I?

Seriously though other people, he does this for a living and I just mess around, so if him and I disagree, probably better to listen to him.