Fishey Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 That piston that is from the orginal thread is 100% without a doubt due to HEAVY Detonation. If that happened in the time frame mentioned in the tread it was very noticable sound (to happen that quick) or it was previously damaged before the tune. There is no way you melt a piston with that much detonation and not notice it. it would be very obvious that there was a problem. Also in response to the above post you can run a car all out forever without melting pistons the only reason you melt a piston is due to detonation. In your case of a stock 850T its most likely due to a failing injector causeing a lean cylinder. I have multiple customers with track cars that see only WOT and Redline shifts with over 70,000mi without a rebuild or piston issues and before you ask I am talking about moddified turbo cars here. Usually the failures we do see are not related to pistons or rods but from oiling issues due to the high latteral loads we are putting on stock oiling systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdizzle Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 Was thinking that. I am not reading all of that when a single picture would do.Hmmm, not so sure that a VT/RICA custom tune is a wise thing to do to your vehicle fatman.... well not if you want it to last....Yeah, nice safe AFR plot there.....NOT! (Even Dynojet have placed a red dotted line at AFR 12:1)And as Adam himself pointed out on pistonheads, he thinks it's perfectly normal to map to that AFR because that's how Volvo/Ford do it for emissions and fuel economy on a standard car.... Possible result of such an AFR (Not good, nor recommended)Makes you wonder if the Custom RICA/VT tune route is fully understood by the tuner, if they really understand AFR's (Because thats two they've "done badly wrong" or if they just Delete torque limiter, raise overboost threshold, raise rev limit, alter BCS perameters to allow increased boost.MTE's map of Sir Drivealots car is a world above the RICA/VT custom tune, much more smoother, massively more powerful and a much better map in every sense of the word. I've driven it (sssh LOL) and been a passenger in it when it's had the RICA/VT map on it, and the MTE map on it and the difference's are astounding.This is not expressing the line of the forum, nor making representitive comments - this is MY opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishey Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 Just run a standalone and it will always be better in the long run as the motronic boxes are very limited in there capabilities. Also that above graph is over 14:1 when they get into boost.. HOLY CRAP WHO THE HELL TUNED THAT? Also, I can tell you that Ford/Volvo will never tune a car that lean from the factory they know what will happen even on stock boost levels if you run it that lean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACES70 Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 Strait from the site...Looks like an EBAY turbo...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishey Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 Looks like an EBAY turbo......XSPower is known for being the cheapest and most god awful turbos in the world. The entire product line of that company with the acception being intercoolers are total and utter garbage. I have seen those XSpower turbos fail in less then 6 months time and time again but honda boys keep buying them up regardless.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricF Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 That piston that is from the orginal thread is 100% without a doubt due to HEAVY Detonation. If that happened in the time frame mentioned in the tread it was very noticable sound (to happen that quick) or it was previously damaged before the tune. There is no way you melt a piston with that much detonation and not notice it. it would be very obvious that there was a problem. Also in response to the above post you can run a car all out forever without melting pistons the only reason you melt a piston is due to detonation. In your case of a stock 850T its most likely due to a failing injector causeing a lean cylinder. I have multiple customers with track cars that see only WOT and Redline shifts with over 70,000mi without a rebuild or piston issues and before you ask I am talking about moddified turbo cars here. Usually the failures we do see are not related to pistons or rods but from oiling issues due to the high latteral loads we are putting on stock oiling systems.Your customers cars probably have adequate and properly functioning cooling systems... My particular car I'm guessing was run low on coolant. On these engines with these bottom ends, melting a piston shouldn't be the result of detonation. Possibly pre-ignition from too much spark advance perhaps? Pre-ignition and detonation are a little different. I would still say it is likely a cooling issue, or else too much ignition timing leading to pre-ignition. I don't know anything personally of RICA's tuning, but the endless threads about people trying way too hard to poo poo on company X because something bad happens to one of that company's customers almost deserves its own soap opera forum. Without knowing everything about that car's hardware setup and the conditions in which failure occurred, we're not going to be able to say "It was absolutely this or absolutely this."That is why I posted the picture of my piston, which wasn't caused by a botched tune by RICA or anyone else, yet has nearly identical damage.I am also somewhat curious to hear about injectors failing causing a lean condition and engine damage. I think it would be a pretty rare condition for an injector to suddenly flow the perfect percentage less that would still be enough for the mixture to combust under that amount of load but in a lean condition... What I have seen over the years is seized open, or periodic misfiring if an injector is dirty. And the dirty misfiring has always been a very gradual decline rather than something that would suddenly happen on an otherwise well-sorted car.It's fun to look at people's cars after they blow up, but the drama and accusatory speculation we generally see here is almost as lame as political discussions on online forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boosted5cyl Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 man that sounds like my luck x's 10 ! SO SO sorry about the car man, people like that are all over apparently and I guess it's up to us T5D5 and VSers to regulate and get these assholes out of business and to stop stealing peoples $$ and selling stuff for what its not as opposed to some new SUPER product that has no merit or weight when it comes to dependability and functionality of what you buy, a damn shame, screw VT and I hope you guys over there stick it to them.PS< I think whats most evident is that so called "tuners" or specialty shops just want your money and the support aspect is all up to you, hence Che's "Members who sell stuff and support it " thead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Che'_Moderator Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 Also in response to the above post you can run a car all out forever without melting pistons the only reason you melt a piston is due to detonation. In your case of a stock 850T its most likely due to a failing injector causeing a lean cylinder.AL enters transition ~1000F. Its liquid by 1200. I have seen cars properly tuned with no ignition issues melt pistons and valves. EGTs 1600 > Piston top if there us no cooling present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmartinlsmith Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 umm chuck you say tune with af.. would a narrow band be a good starting point or are they useless light shows? im getting ready to put a st ecu in my 94 i have a boost gauge hooked up but i split it with the stock one. should i just disconnect the oem and run it that way or run a whole line from engine bay to get true boost levels? and would a cat back exhaust be ok or should i run a 3' dp and 2.5 back? still a d.d. but i want to have a lil fun with the stock terbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACES70 Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 umm chuck you say tune with af.. would a narrow band be a good starting point or are they useless light shows? im getting ready to put a st ecu in my 94 i have a boost gauge hooked up but i split it with the stock one. should i just disconnect the oem and run it that way or run a whole line from engine bay to get true boost levels? and would a cat back exhaust be ok or should i run a 3' dp and 2.5 back? still a d.d. but i want to have a lil fun with the stock terboSo many questions in that, why dont you start a new thread instead of jacking this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Che'_Moderator Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 So many questions in that, why dont you start a new thread instead of jacking this one.Cause hijacking is the new pegs.And no. This is why I advocate EGTs over A/F. 1. Its way easier to keep an eye on EGTs while driving.2. Even if you have 11:1 super fat A/F you can still have elevated EGTs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishey Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 AL enters transition ~1000F. Its liquid by 1200. I have seen cars properly tuned with no ignition issues melt pistons and valves. EGTs 1600 > Piston top if there us no cooling present.95% of the time with coolant you will freeze the piston or the head gasket will go Pop long before detonation. It will also melt just about everything in the cooling system and lets not forget our good friends the valve guides and valves.To prove my point here is this piston..There is no way the above is from cooling as the cars oiling system/fan was working properly and its air cooled. It was because it was far to lean under boost causing exactly the same type of damage we see in the volvo. Also, I would like to say to Che the fastest way to increase EGT is to run a lean mixture as this is how I tune most of my cars along with AFR. Cooling system can be 100% properly working and you can skyrocket EGT's by running a lean mixture as I am sure you are aware. Here is for example a Overheated piston due to low coolant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmsee Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 Wow :o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boosted5cyl Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 that hurts to see, glad it aint mine ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Che'_Moderator Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 95% of the time with coolant you will freeze the piston or the head gasket will go Pop long before detonation. It will also melt just about everything in the cooling system and lets not forget our good friends the valve guides and valves.To prove my point here is this piston..There is no way the above is from cooling as the cars oiling system/fan was working properly and its air cooled. It was because it was far to lean under boost causing exactly the same type of damage we see in the volvo. Also, I would like to say to Che the fastest way to increase EGT is to run a lean mixture as this is how I tune most of my cars along with AFR. Cooling system can be 100% properly working and you can skyrocket EGT's by running a lean mixture as I am sure you are aware.Chicken or the egg man. Leaning out is the fast way to induce ping. But poor cooling will induce ping just as fast. My point about cooling was that you can suppress pre-ignition with a high RVP fuel but the temp are still going up. Ping have have been the bullet but heat was the gun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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