EricF Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Hi Hussein, I have a request! Could you find some 100 or 104 unleaded, or spike your next tank with a hefty dose of toluene to bring the octane up a bit? I would be exceedingly curious to see the timing datalogs from that tank of gas. It has been a long time since going to the track frequently with a Motronic powered car, but I do recall that between my experiences along with those of Joseph Essaye and a few others, we would consistently get much better top end pull with some added octane. This would be a wonderful chance for us to see if there is actually some light knocking going on that is pulling your timing back. Especially since Jan (JCViggen) has said MTE seems to tune with the assumption that there will be some timing pull... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookforjoe Posted December 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Hi Hussein, I have a request! Could you find some 100 or 104 unleaded, or spike your next tank with a hefty dose of toluene to bring the octane up a bit? I would be exceedingly curious to see the timing datalogs from that tank of gas. It has been a long time since going to the track frequently with a Motronic powered car, but I do recall that between my experiences along with those of Joseph Essaye and a few others, we would consistently get much better top end pull with some added octane. This would be a wonderful chance for us to see if there is actually some light knocking going on that is pulling your timing back. Especially since Jan (JCViggen) has said MTE seems to tune with the assumption that there will be some timing pull... Hi Eric I'll see what I can do. Right now, I'm still trying to get the boost data scaled correctly using signal from the Apexi AVC-R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave 54 Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Have you checked your fuel pump volts yet man, curious to see if it's dropping off in the higher rpm's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bondo Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Hi Eric I'll see what I can do. Right now, I'm still trying to get the boost data scaled correctly using signal from the Apexi AVC-R Are you sure you can scale it "correctly" at this time? I wouldn't spend much time trying to get it to match your boost gauge, most are pretty inaccurate. You need to do some dyno pulls on a dyno that logs boost, and scale your logs so that they coincide with the dyno's if you really want it to be accurate. I agree it would ne nice to verify you have good fuel pressure, but really a dyno run will tell you right away if you're simply maxing out the injectors or if you have a potential delivery issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookforjoe Posted December 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Are you sure you can scale it "correctly" at this time? I wouldn't spend much time trying to get it to match your boost gauge, most are pretty inaccurate. You need to do some dyno pulls on a dyno that logs boost, and scale your logs so that they coincide with the dyno's if you really want it to be accurate. I agree it would ne nice to verify you have good fuel pressure, but really a dyno run will tell you right away if you're simply maxing out the injectors or if you have a potential delivery issue. I'm trying to get it to match the Apexi data display which is in Kg/cm2, not the gauge. The gauge is clearly a "suggestion" I've run the car previously with the Volvo FP Tester hooked up to the rail, gauge taped to the windshield, and had no pressure drop under WOT. I will be dyno'ing to get real numbers for comparison, but I think I want to get the TT setup somewhat established so I can swap ECU's on the dyno & compare. @$200 for three pulls, I want to get my $$ worth I figure if they are willing to run my laptop data log similtaneously (sp?) I will have great comparsion data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bondo Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Ah perfect, yeah having it match the EBC's readout is a reasonable thing to do. In that case it really doesn't matter what is or isn't "calibrated" - your boost setpoint/target is based on what the EBC thinks it is - so you might as well log based on that, for sure. I know we've talked about it before, but that dyno time is just highway robbery. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricF Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Does that dyno shop offer tuning by the hour? Maybe their "3 pulls" is really high to get people to buy tuning time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookforjoe Posted December 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 Did a 5th gear pull yesterday - uphill grade, probably 15% - hard to really evaluate since the road is never totally empty, and at this point I'm getting close to the end of my willingness to take this kind of risk... No high-octane gas yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bum2kev Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 why dont you put the TT ecu in?? i think you will have much better luck doing all of this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCviggen Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 (edited) I don't like your AFR...is this still Janne's ECU? You want a steady ~12 not start pig rich and end way lean. Point I'm trying to make, why waste your time with an ECU you can't remap. This one is never going to work well with that AFR plot. Edited December 3, 2009 by JCviggen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricF Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 I would suggest tailoring your datalog to show you as much as you can about what's going on now with your setup, before you start changing variables. I'm still very leery of those timing values, I think either the logged values have to be wrong, or there is some massive timing pull occurring for one reason or another. If they go up consistently when you increase the octane, it is likely timing pull from detonation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCviggen Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 I'm still very leery of those timing values, I think either the logged values have to be wrong, or there is some massive timing pull occurring for one reason or another. Educated guess his values seem 5-6 degs off. If you look at the values before he hits it they are already on the low side. And as soon as he even makes 5psi they are dropping to 14 btdc. If you get detonation and timing pull, you wouldn't expect it to happen a mere second after going WOT and not even at target boost. But again, the AFRs are in my opinion already impossible to use so even if the timing is off it's pretty pointless to continue with this map. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzimark Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 I'm still very leery of those timing values, I think either the logged values have to be wrong, or there is some massive timing pull occurring for one reason or another. Considering dyno results and the trouble he has been having with AFR, this may be entirely possible. The real question beyond that is, if it is indeed detonation that is causing the timing to be pulled back, why? He's running a setup that should easily be able to handle the pressure that turbo is throwing at the engine. As for the AFR rising with rpm, it could be related to the constant airflow value from the MAF... which really shouldn't be happening either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCviggen Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 As for the AFR rising with rpm, it could be related to the constant airflow value from the MAF... which really shouldn't be happening either. I disagree, that's just 100% load (max measurable airflow for the ECU) which is what you would expect in this case. The problem is the fuel map. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bondo Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 Agree with both posts above. It just keeps getting leaner and leaner, that just isn't healthy. That makes me think that make the timing values might actually correct, oddly enough. It's possibly it's not pinging itself to death running 13:1 and leaner afr's at 17psi+ because it's got no timing. If those timing values are correct, pretty much the whole map needs like, probably 10 degrees added. It would be a LOT faster a little richer and with that timing added in. As it is if the logs are accurate I'd expect EGT's to be fairly high pre-turbo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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