Hussein's 1998 V70 Xr : The Force Awakens

[JCviggen]

It's still pegging the MAF.

Nothing wrong with that :)

[ozzimark]

It's still pegging the MAF.

I don't think he has a choice in the matter unless he switches to a larger MAF housing and does a lot of work scaling the tables around. I've seen around 215 grams/sec on a 100% stock setup, so it doesn't seem that Volvo gave us a lot of headroom to work with if 231 g/s really is the max <_<

[GeraldJ]

Its a little fat from about 3200-6300. Pulling fuel from there may add it somewhere else.

I have never touched a TT so I wouldnt know how the software works. I know Jan was doing something with the timing tables where he could add another point up top.

[lookforjoe]

Moved the fuel table around a bit, shifted the scale to 400-7200 from 100-62600

and (lowered) the WOT sliders

feels better, but of course still needs work!

I have a bored-out MAF housing I was thinking of playing with, but as pointed out, all that does is move the max load scale down the table somewhat. With the table re-mapping that will then be required, I'm not sure it's worth it. It's not going to change the actual limits of the MAF or ECU.

[GeraldJ]

looking much better. Should feel better too.

That is what I was talking about, moving the scale up and down the RPM.

Im convinced I want TT

[Captain Bondo]

Nothing wrong with that

How do you perform accurate fuel calcs when the sensor is no longer reacting to increases in airflow?

[lookforjoe]

1-3rd

-5th had some blowout

I had a little breakup/blowout on the way home this afternoon, so I decided to swap out the plugs before I start tweaking the map again. The NGK R5672a-8's that were in there I had gapped to about .032", just to see if that could hold up with the MSD6A

they certainly don't look bad overall,

... but I put new ones in gapped down to .028". See how that goes.

[flaco]

aaaaa... perfect setup to run some aftermarket ecu and ditch the stock maf. say megasquirt please!

[GeraldJ]

the turbo tuner ecu (LookforJoe has) is such a better, easier to use system than MS is.

It is a nice idea to be able to go to a MAP sensor system but I have talked to Adam and he said it wouldnt be worth it.

[JCviggen]

How do you perform accurate fuel calcs when the sensor is no longer reacting to increases in airflow?

You can't. You choose a particular boost level and map the fuel accordingly with a wideband sensor. At full throttle this is hardly a problem and works perfectly well.

The MAF maxes out around 270 crank horsepower worth of air on M4.3, M4.4 a bit later but not much. The only thing you can do is upgrade the housing, but this is a mixed blessing because you will effectively lower the resolution of the map. You lose the bottom cells because you won't be able to hit them anymore.

[EricF]

the turbo tuner ecu (LookforJoe has) is such a better, easier to use system than MS is.

It is a nice idea to be able to go to a MAP sensor system but I have talked to Adam and he said it wouldnt be worth it.

Who is Adam?

I have a few problems with your statement

Main of which being that it seems to me that there is a lot of voodoo and guessing involved in trying to get WOT high rpm ignition timing to be consistently what you want with Motronic.

Easier to use is doubtful. Easier to set up is where turbo tuner crushes MS and any other standalones for that matter. However, the software I'm using for VEMS is Megatune, and it's not bad. Turbo tuner doesn't even datalog, so I don't know how that could be considered easier to tune. Not trying to rag on turbo tuner or you (I think turbo tuner's proven itself as a motronic tuner, and you've proven yourself to be one of the more apt dudes on here ), but just trying to clarify the comment a little...

[turbotuner]

Who is Adam?

Me!

Main of which being that it seems to me that there is a lot of voodoo and guessing involved in trying to get WOT high rpm ignition timing to be consistently what you want with Motronic.

Not really - you only get inconsistent timing if it's knocking and the ECU has to retard the ignition timing away from what you specify. If there is no knock, the timing will be exactly as specified in the tables. Obviously the end result depends on the tuning knowledge of the user, but there is certainly no voodoo! Great idea for a product though... "voodoo tuner"

Easier to use is doubtful. Easier to set up is where turbo tuner crushes MS and any other standalones for that matter. However, the software I'm using for VEMS is Megatune, and it's not bad. Turbo tuner doesn't even datalog, so I don't know how that could be considered easier to tune.

Turbo-Tuner does provide data-logging info for the cars which support this via OBD2, although this isn't ideal because it's too slow to support many channels. However, you are correct in that TT does not currently include it's own generic data-logging capability (in the same sense as other standalones) for all cars. However, it won't be lacking this for long, as well as having some other nifty features added.

I do agree that the words "better" and "easier" are subjective and ultimately depend on what the criteria is.

Edited January 28, 2010 by turbotuner

[Captain Bondo]

You can't. You choose a particular boost level and map the fuel accordingly with a wideband sensor. At full throttle this is hardly a problem and works perfectly well.

So you can still map the fuel based on boost pressure as if the system were map based? If you can do that then it's not so bad, but if [peggiung tha maf at say 18psi means that the ecu adds the same amount of fuel for 18psi as it does for 22psi then that friggin useless.

The MAF maxes out around 270 crank horsepower worth of air on M4.3, M4.4 a bit later but not much. The only thing you can do is upgrade the housing, but this is a mixed blessing because you will effectively lower the resolution of the map. You lose the bottom cells because you won't be able to hit them anymore.

If you enlarge the housing you do lose resolution, of course. However, you should not lose the bottom cells if you do it right, the "span" is increased so the resolution goes down. Defintely won't tune as nicely at lower loads though.

How does the motronic interpolate between load points?

Turbotuner,

Megatune software totally sucks compared to Tuner Studio. If you like megatune you should try Tuner Studio. It's a million times better. Iknow they were at least working on support for VEMS but maybe not yet...

[GeraldJ]

Easy question for you Eric. If I had all the values for the timing, fuel, boost, maf and whatnot, how hard would it be to tune MS? Are the values universal?

I am not familiar with the motronic stand alone. I have ran a few Hondata ecus, zdyne and a couple others. I see a lot of people having problems with their MS and getting a base map just to get the car running, Ive never had much problem with other stand alone systems.

As far as datalogging goes, a stand alone system for this is not ideal but works. It would be nice to see the TT have a logging system in it.

For my 242 project I will likely use a Haltech system as I am very familiar with it and have tuned a dozen or so cars with it.

[EricF]

Me!

Ahhh, ok

Not really - you only get inconsistent timing if it's knocking and the ECU has to retard the ignition timing away from what you specify. If there is no knock, the timing will be exactly as specified in the tables. Obviously the end result depends on the tuning knowledge of the user, but there is certainly no voodoo! Great idea for a product though... "voodoo tuner"

My understanding is that the increased noise levels at higher power levels and very high RPM really start to mess with the knock sensors. Can you adjust the threshold levels for the sensors and ignition retard settings with turbo tuner? If not, I bet that would be an exceedingly useful feature. What I recall Jan (JCViggen) saying about MTE dyno tuning is that they tend to leave the high load/rpm spark values very high on a lot of cars, knowing that there will be consistent knock retard even in the absence of actual knock events in those bins. Thus you'll see a lot of dyno tuned maps with much higher values in the high load/RPM bins than will ever actually be seen in actuality because the ECU is pulling timing at that point no matter what.

Even the suggestion of this, coupled with a lot of Hussein's datalogs showing abnormally low timing levels (with Janne's tunes as well as when he first started using turbo tuner), makes me feel like Motronic lacks the ability to really give accurate and consistent timing at those levels. Like anything else though, if you have enough adjustability with something like turbo tuner, you'll eventually get it right. Just a place where I think standalones really have the advantage.