ozzimark Posted March 24, 2010 Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 I find it interesting that in all of tables, the AFRs and ignition timing look good before the shift, Yeah, it's a tad lean, but it's holding pretty steady, and timing is generally increasing with RPM, as it should. Then you shift, there is a rich spike after the shift, and then the ignition timing becomes less and less advanced with more RPM I know you're running a recirc setup, so it shouldn't be venting air anywhere during the shift.. Does the ECU enrich the mixture when it sees a shift event to be on the safe side? Even so, it still shouldn't be pulling timing too. I must be overlooking something :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bondo Posted March 24, 2010 Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 No dude, rick spikes when you snap the throttle shut on shifts are normal, every system does it to some degree depending on how the decel fuel cut is programmed. 13:1 is a little lean for 23psi? You are nuts. Not a chance I'd every tune a car for 13:1 at 23psi on pump. You're lucky the timing is so retarded. I wonder if it would advance the timing some more if it was so lean, and probably pinging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookforjoe Posted March 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 No dude, rick spikes when you snap the throttle shut on shifts are normal, every system does it to some degree depending on how the decel fuel cut is programmed. 13:1 is a little lean for 23psi? You are nuts. Not a chance I'd every tune a car for 13:1 at 23psi on pump. You're lucky the timing is so retarded. I wonder if it would advance the timing some more if it was so lean, and probably pinging. Not done yet! Still don't have map trace record, so I'm modding off my data logs. The 13's aren't at WOT, so I have to guesstimate what the load range is. As long as I can get it down to 12.5, I'll be happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricF Posted March 24, 2010 Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 No dude, rick spikes when you snap the throttle shut on shifts are normal, every system does it to some degree depending on how the decel fuel cut is programmed. 13:1 is a little lean for 23psi? You are nuts. Not a chance I'd every tune a car for 13:1 at 23psi on pump. You're lucky the timing is so retarded. I wonder if it would advance the timing some more if it was so lean, and probably pinging. Well, at this point I don't think we can argue that the timing is being pulled from being too lean, because he has had basically no timing from day one, from 9:1 to 14:1 and everywhere in between. I think once he gets the AFRs dialed into the mid-low 12s he'll be able to focus more entirely upon timing and hopefully make some progress there. Hussein, glad to hear it feels faster! Get the AFRs down a tad and get those timing values up, and I bet you'll be grinning ear to ear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzimark Posted March 24, 2010 Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 No dude, rick spikes when you snap the throttle shut on shifts are normal, every system does it to some degree depending on how the decel fuel cut is programmed. Figured, with the rapid changes in airflow, it makes sense to play it safe and throw a bit more fuel in there. But my point with the timing still stands. It's safe to say that there aren't misfires or any detonation, Hussein would notice that pretty quick, so it's something else. TT needs to hurry up with the updated map trace, I think that will answer a lot of questions, but probably raise a bunch more :ph34r: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bondo Posted March 24, 2010 Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 Well, at this point I don't think we can argue that the timing is being pulled from being too lean, because he has had basically no timing from day one, from 9:1 to 14:1 and everywhere in between. /quote] I'm not saying it's why his timing is retarded, I'm just saying though that it's not doing it any favors. The afrs have never been consistent even within a given tune or a given pull, and the ecu takes its sweet time putting timing back in. 13:1 at 23psi on pump is a really, really bad plan IMO. The only reason it isn't blowing up is because something else is seriously monkeyed and it's not actually making any power and doesn't have the combustion pressure to actually hurt itself. Turning the boost down form 25 to 23psi to troubleshoot is a waste of time. Turn it down to 14psi and start over and tune the car properly and understand what the tune is doing. You've been going around in circles for months. it seriously take about an hour to tune a car on a "normal" ems on the dyno. Turn the boost dway down and get it back to just working like a normal car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbotuner Posted March 24, 2010 Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 Figured, with the rapid changes in airflow, it makes sense to play it safe and throw a bit more fuel in there. But my point with the timing still stands. It's safe to say that there aren't misfires or any detonation, Hussein would notice that pretty quick, so it's something else. TT needs to hurry up with the updated map trace, I think that will answer a lot of questions, but probably raise a bunch more Don't forget that up until now he has been running with incorrect cam timing, so I don't think any of the previous data is going to be very meaningful. Now that he has the correct cam timing, the results should be much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzimark Posted March 24, 2010 Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 Don't forget that up until now he has been running with incorrect cam timing Define "incorrect". While I agree that certain cam timing settings will yield more or less power, they should not cause the ECU to pull that much timing like was seen before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbotuner Posted March 24, 2010 Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 Define "incorrect". While I agree that certain cam timing settings will yield more or less power, they should not cause the ECU to pull that much timing like was seen before. Incorrect = not what it should be! Incorrectly adjusted cams can throw a knock sensor DTC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookforjoe Posted March 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Well, I had bought a GM IAT sensor, but since it won't feed the onboard gauge, and I'm not ready to do yet another wiring harness into the pass compartment, I modified a stock temp sensor, using the housing from a 740 engine temp sensor, so I could screw it into the 3/8" bung I put in the hot side pipe just before the IC. heated the brass housing & heat-sealed the sensor housing, then epoxied the inside, with a sleeve the keep the probe free. I extended the stock amb temp harness to the pass side, keeping the original connector, so that I can switch back to ambinet temp for the gauge if I want. Tomorrow I'll see what sort of temps I see on the hot side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdlimy Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 you are a crafty little bugger looking good though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bum2kev Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 nice work! just put a switch in the car so you can switch between the 2...or 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klr142 Posted March 26, 2010 Report Share Posted March 26, 2010 13:1 at 23psi on pump is a really, really bad plan IMO. The only reason it isn't blowing up is because something else is seriously monkeyed and it's not actually making any power and doesn't have the combustion pressure to actually hurt itself. Turning the boost down form 25 to 23psi to troubleshoot is a waste of time. Turn it down to 14psi and start over and tune the car properly and understand what the tune is doing. You've been going around in circles for months. it seriously take about an hour to tune a car on a "normal" ems on the dyno. Turn the boost dway down and get it back to just working like a normal car. Opinions are opinions. And, this definitely isn't a normal EMS. I'm looking forward to the updates that are coming, for sure. Nick's car may not feel very fast either, it'll be on the dyno on Saturday and I'm not expecting much either. We're not running as much boost as Hussein was though, only 15psi or so and we're using the IPD TCV for boost control. The spiking's been a pain, but it's starting to smooth out a bit. We'll see how it goes. I don't know enough about the ignition timing with these things so I'm hesitant to try adding much there. Hussein, can you possibly send Nick one of your current files for comparison with what we have? Nick should send you a copy of what he's running as well, just for fun. I leaned the map out a good bit originally from what we had to play with. We still only have a couple hours of tuning into it(needs much more), but yeah. Fun stuff, but very held back with the lack of datalogging and features that we hope to one day see. This is far from a full EMS, but it does the job of mimicking one well enough to allow us to try out different injectors and larger turbos... Looking forward to seeing how you progress with this. -Kyle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookforjoe Posted March 26, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2010 Hussein, can you possibly send Nick one of your current files for comparison with what we have? Nick should send you a copy of what he's running as well, just for fun. I leaned the map out a good bit originally from what we had to play with. We still only have a couple hours of tuning into it(needs much more), but yeah. Fun stuff, but very held back with the lack of datalogging and features that we hope to one day see. This is far from a full EMS, but it does the job of mimicking one well enough to allow us to try out different injectors and larger turbos... Looking forward to seeing how you progress with this. -Kyle Hi Kyle I'll send Nick this one in TT format tomorrow - it was the most refined of my own tunes, fueled for 1.5Kg/cm2, so you'll need to lean it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klr142 Posted March 26, 2010 Report Share Posted March 26, 2010 Hi Kyle I'll send Nick this one in TT format tomorrow - it was the most refined of my own tunes, fueled for 1.5Kg/cm2, so you'll need to lean it out.Thanks Hussein. That actually somewhat looks pretty similar to what we're running, I think. One of the main differences are we aren't running quite as much main fuel in the 4800 and above bins and I have the low load bins a bit leaner. The other difference is I'm not using very much enrichment on the WOT side, only -2 and -3 for most of the different RPM points with a bit more(-4 or -5) at the top rpm scale. Cool. I also never let anything in one of the load ranges lean out like you have in the 28-50% load bins above 4200 rpm. We haven't done much midrange tuning, but I did try to keep things smooth across the board for the areas that didn't need much enrichment. One of the main things we've been fighting is boost spiking and causing cut/blow-out of sorts. I've tapered the onset of boost like I see being discussed here so that it's not "allowed" to hit peak boost until somewhere above 4200/4800 or so. Can't remember exactly, but things seem to be coming together. I do wonder if his cam timing's off though, just because I don't think he really had a good way to set it. What are the differences between your guys' setups? Just the turbo? Are the pistons/rods/compression ratio/cams the same? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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