(n)A-GAME Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 One thing I've learned from my build is that when you do something that is so far out of the ordinary, you have to expect that there will be setbacks and problems. So the choice is between pushing the limit and getting frustrated when it doesn't work, or keeping within the "normal" bounds with less frustration, but not getting as much of what you want to get out of the car and the project. It does surprise me though that you can't find someone who doesn't know how to do TT. NYC of all places should have someone capable of doing that. Expand the search radius a bit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCviggen Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 I understand the frustration. How was the cooling? The run seems long and with quite a lot of load, if the cooling isnt brilliant the car will see considerably higher IATs. But thats the case on most dynos anyway. Whats the brand of the dyno? 250 isnt always a bad score depending on load and rolling resistance. A little strange how your MAF readings dropped towards the end of the run (and that led to the AFRs getting leaner at the same time as a result) As bad as the midrange looks timing wise, from 6000 something onwards your AFR improved and timing wasnt too bad anymore at that point (for a dyno environment) and still it wasnt really making that much power. You have a difficult car evidently! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookforjoe Posted March 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 Thanks guys. I understand the frustration. How was the cooling? The run seems long and with quite a lot of load, if the cooling isnt brilliant the car will see considerably higher IATs. But thats the case on most dynos anyway. Whats the brand of the dyno? 250 isnt always a bad score depending on load and rolling resistance. A little strange how your MAF readings dropped towards the end of the run (and that led to the AFRs getting leaner at the same time as a result) As bad as the midrange looks timing wise, from 6000 something onwards your AFR improved and timing wasnt too bad anymore at that point (for a dyno environment) and still it wasnt really making that much power. You have a difficult car evidently! The dyno cooling sucks. They have a solid wall in front of the dyno (Mustang 500 AWD), and a ridulous small blower fan. In the excel data log, you can see the timing drops to negative values!!! No surprise the pull took so long with that timing pull, he also went WOT too early - which I'm sure contributed to the timing pull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fischmama Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 Thanks guys. The dyno cooling sucks. They have a solid wall in front of the dyno (Mustang 500 AWD), and a ridulous small blower fan. In the excel data log, you can see the timing drops to negative values!!! No surprise the pull took so long with that timing pull, he also went WOT too early - which I'm sure contributed to the timing pull. It sounds like you might want to find another dyno shop. The shop here followed my directions to the teeth in terms of when to start, what gear and watch the boost (had no clue how the K24 would perform on the dyno). Although I would not let them tune the car, even if I had the ability right now. Tuning can be though espiciallly with limited ability to datalog. OBD is just not fast enough to properly log in my opinion, even though yours seems better than my solution at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loseR99 Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 There has to be a dyno operator that will allow you to perform the pull yourself. I know when I took the S40 in for some pulls Arthur at Dynolab here in Atlanta let me. Simply because you drive the car everyday, you are familiar with its tendencies, and how to extract its best performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volvo5.0 Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 I'd probably say that IAT's were probably to blame, especially with the inadequate cooling at the dyno shop. I have a couple of logs I can post later. One was on a 78* day when timing got pulled to 4.5* BTDC. The other was on a 50* day and timing never dropped below 12.5* BTDC. I'm going to install a IAT sensor just before the T-body and hook it up to an empty spot that is available on my Innovate LMA-3. I hope to get it installed soon before the ambient temps get too high, and we'll see what that tells us. I thought I read that you had a gauge that you could monitor IAT's??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookforjoe Posted March 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 I'd probably say that IAT's were probably to blame, especially with the inadequate cooling at the dyno shop. I have a couple of logs I can post later. One was on a 78* day when timing got pulled to 4.5* BTDC. The other was on a 50* day and timing never dropped below 12.5* BTDC. I'm going to install a IAT sensor just before the T-body and hook it up to an empty spot that is available on my Innovate LMA-3. I hope to get it installed soon before the ambient temps get too high, and we'll see what that tells us. I thought I read that you had a gauge that you could monitor IAT's??? I do have a temp sensor in the coldside pipe - it's hooked to the info center, using the ambient temp spot - so I can't log from it. Didn't think to watch it while the operator was doing the pulls. Being a passenger in the car with it shifting laterally was definitely freaking me out - I didn't watch much other than the laptop screen. I have a 'real' IAT sensor I bought some time ago - I may add a bung to the custom manifold before I reinstall it - it would be a good thing to log for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Ship Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 frustrating. sounds like it's time for a new dyno, for sure. HotRod just did an article about the shop to shop discrepancies, if it's of interest to you: http://tiny.cc/wtb0n 25 degrees of timing pull is a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elliot Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 I would be glad to take a look at your TTmap or a screen shot of the timing if you would like?!I run a GT30 with 3inch maf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCviggen Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 I would be glad to take a look at your TTmap or a screen shot of the timing if you would like?!I run a GT30 with 3inch maf. Hey m8 I had a look a good while ago but M4.4 seems to behave considerably different from M4.3, little weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dublin14 Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 I really hope the 4.4M TT doesnt turn out to be a PITA vs the 4.3M TT? How many 4.4M TT guys are out there right now with big Turbo setups and are happy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookforjoe Posted March 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 I would be glad to take a look at your TTmap or a screen shot of the timing if you would like?!I run a GT30 with 3inch maf. Thanks! Never hurts to have another set of eyes to look it over! I'll put up screenshots tomorrow. Not sure I should really worry that much, since the timing is OK in my own logs. It's partly the fact that the dyno pulls were such crap that pissed me off. I have switched back to a timing map based on one that JCV worked on for me & dropped boost back to 18psi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bondo Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Cue broken record.... First of all, like you have been told countless times - do pulls with progressively increasing amounts of boost pressure. Do'nt just jump on there with 24psi or whatever insane amount and beat your head against the wall. Do a pull at 12psi. Adjust as needed. Then at 15psi. NOTE the differences! Then at 18, etc. How else are you going to tell where the system is at in terms of overall efficiency when you don't actually progress through the tuning in a systematic way? What does the car make at 12psi? Do you even know? Second of all, If I've said it once, I've said it 100 times. Until TT product a manual that actually describes how injector pulsewidth and spark advance are actually calculated, and what inputs affect them in what way, the system is next to useless. Blah blah yeah some people have made it work I know. Regardless, I would not feel dafe even trying to tune a system where I have no control over any of the secondary correction factors like IAT, or description of how they are calculated. It's tuning equivalent of "pin the tail on the donkey". Just put a blindfold on and wander around until you get where you want to be (and hope you don't pop too many motors on the way).... I know this doesn't really help you specifically, but I keep beating this drum in hopes that someone at TT will read it and actually do something. Mapping an engine management system (especially a plug'n'play) should take a few hours, not a few months. With these two issues working together, you are going to have a hard time making any power. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdlimy Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 just a quick thought here. tt 4.3 doesnt have issues correct? Would it be that big of a pita to convert to m4.3 tt? I know it seems like a pain to do since you shouldnt have to, but...:/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCviggen Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) do pulls with progressively increasing amounts of boost pressure. Do'nt just jump on there with 24psi or whatever insane amount and beat your head against the wall. True, avoiding the torque mountain in the midrange would help keep the timing at higher revs. Until TT product a manual that actually describes how injector pulsewidth and spark advance are actually calculated, and what inputs affect them in what way, the system is next to useless. By this logic pretty much no-one would be allowed to tune M4.x ECUs...or many other OEM ECUs for that matter. In this case first of all you know where to start (a tuned map) secondly the amount of fuel that gets injected is easily monitored by AFR. The correction done by O2 sensor input happens pretty quickly. If you are worried about knock you can get stuff to monitor that too. Simply avoiding tuning M4.x because it does not offer the transparancy of an aftermarket EMS is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You can perfectly monitor knock and AFR or EGT to ensure your engine is safe whilst tuning. TT lets you do no less or no more than what most tuning companies can do. Its early 90s volvo technology we are working with here what do you expect. Even the ECU does not know the IAT. Or the IMP for that matter. So there is very little to document. Edited March 31, 2011 by JCviggen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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