tca217 Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 It all boils down to how bad does somebody want that particular car and how much they are willing to spend on it. If it is their dream car and they cannot find any other ones, then you will get the higher price. Simple as that. If it is a niche, (special) car, it doesn't really depend on the market, if someone wants it bad enough they will pay the price. If it is a run of the mill car you get what the market says it's worth. Great example is the Barrett/Jackson auction. Who would have thought that a VW bus would be worth over $25,000.00 ever? Or a amphi-car would be worth over $100,000.00? Just my opinion but I have been around cars for all my life and it amazes me what people will pay for a car if it is what they really want, no matter the condition, In their mind it is THE car and worth every penny and usually pay it..............................................TIM B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abundant Meat Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 It all boils down to how bad does somebody want that particular car and how much they are willing to spend on it. If it is their dream car and they cannot find any other ones, then you will get the higher price. Simple as that. If it is a niche, (special) car, it doesn't really depend on the market, if someone wants it bad enough they will pay the price. If it is a run of the mill car you get what the market says it's worth. Great example is the Barrett/Jackson auction. Who would have thought that a VW bus would be worth over $25,000.00 ever? Or a amphi-car would be worth over $100,000.00? Just my opinion but I have been around cars for all my life and it amazes me what people will pay for a car if it is what they really want, no matter the condition, In their mind it is THE car and worth every penny and usually pay it..............................................TIM I mostly agree with you, however I will say in a down market the price of rare cars does decline some or at the very least stays stagnant and doesn't appreciate much. Case in point there are many 50's cars that couldn't be touched for under $30k when the market was up before 2007 and before...now those same cars are seen as low as the mid teens. In my opinion it is in an economic downturn that you buy exotic or classic cars, but you do not sell. You will lose money selling a rare or sought after car in a down market. You will gain money by buying in a down market. I had a 57 Chevy Bel Air that was on the front cover of Street Rodder, Car Craft and was featured in Hot Rod's first annual yearbook. The car was in an accident after it appeared on the magazines. My dad bought it when he was 16 for a project to restore it. He never got around to it. It sat in a garage for 45 years. He gave it to me and told me to sell it because it would cost at least $30k to fix. I was told by numerous people that I wouldn't get more than $3k for it because every single thing including the floor was rusted out on it. I said because of it being a featured car and the first east coast custom Bel Air it would fetch much more. I ended up getting nearly 3 times what everyone said I would get. Case in point is if I listened to everyone else I would have accepted $3k when I got nearly $10k. As TCA217 says it all boils down to if someone wants that car and lets face it, nearly every S70 owner wishes they had a true T5M. That makes the car sought after which makes it have the ability to fetch a higher pricetag. Every person I've come across had no clue how quick a Volvo T5M was and now they all want one. I've had numerous offers for my car for cash on the spot (one offer as high as $6000) but I refuse to take it. I have a strong feeling that thirty years down the road this will be one of the cars that people will pay top dollar for in terms of European performance. I wouldn't let mine go for less than $8k right now and I know in this down market no one will pay that so this is not the time to even consider selling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burn-E Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 I have a strong feeling that thirty years down the road this will be one of the cars that people will pay top dollar for in terms of European performance. You're delusional. Rare cars only matter to collectors, and usually those cars have to be in superior condition. We're talking about a Volvo not an early BMW M3 or a Renault 5 Turbo. The vast majority of the market view these cars as utilitarian, slightly quirky, safe boxes with a little Scandinavian style. To most of the world they're a Swedish Camry. There will be a pocket of enthusiasts (i.e. the participants in this forum and the few others like it) who revere the T5M, just like there are those who love the Skoda Rapid or the Porsche 944. Though I would argue both of those represent far more collectible cars than the S70 T5M. If however we were talking about the 95 T5-R then I would completely agree with you. The 98 coupe may yet reach that point also given the massive design departure it represented for Volvo (and I'm not being biased in that claim). Some rare cars are rare for a reason and they still don't gather "top dollar" as you claim. Take the Morris Marina as an example. Extremely rare today (only 745 still on the road in the UK from a peak of 800k cars sold) and yet you can pick up an extremely low mileage one for $1500. The day I see a vintage Volvo S70 T5M (not tuned, not modded) cross the stage of a Barrett Jackson collectible cars sale is the day I'll eat my words. It will never happen. I love Volvos, I eat, sleep, and drive them. But I recognize them for what they are: a brand that is generally not classified in the ranks of high performance European cars. A brand that is recognized more for its safety than its looks and performance. And that's what makes them so much fun as sleepers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abundant Meat Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Funny you mention not modded, not tuned as if the only cars that are worth money are pure originals. Apparently you aren't the enthusiast you peg yourself as. Explain how my NON-ORIGINAL 57 Chevy Bel-air that was fully modded went for nearly $10k with no floor, rusted beyond belief, no tranny, no exhaust, half an interior, totalled rear end etc etc? Please tell me your first hand experience with selling rare cars other than the usual internet enthusiast that has zero first hand knowledge! Was your 98 that you think may be worth something someday produced in numbers less than 1000? The S70 T5M was at under 650 units total for all years combined produced. That is rare. You Mention a Morris Marina that had a starting number of 8000 cars and now only 745 of them exist? Wtf kind of logic is that? You are basing your point of view on a car that had a validated high production number, and then trying to say it is comparable because there are only 745 now? That isn't verifiable! That is just your speculation. Unless there is some database that keeps track of every car destroyed you can't prove there is only 745 of them now which is why it is not worth any money. The T5M on the other hand is verifiable as under 650 units so its starting point is rare. As for your claim that Volvo's will never be worth something that is ludacris. The same used to be said for many different cars that are now fetching high dollar amounts. As I said I already had offers of up to $6000 cash for my car...much more than the $3k pricetag many said a T5m is worth. I decent condition high mileage one like the OP's car I think could safely pull in $4k if he waits for the right buyer. Considering there has been widespread publicity of that Volvo having over a million miles on it....200k miles is a drop in the bucket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burn-E Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 LOL! You're equating a 57 Chevy Bel Air (THE 57 chevy) to a Volvo S70. That's funny. Design aesthetics and the ability to drop a chevy big block are huge drivers of the popularity of that car. Check out my link to the Volvos that have crossed the Barrett Jackson floor. You'll understand why I said unmodified. But, I'll take it further, I doubt we'll see a modified S70 T5M cross that floor in the next 30 years either. And I made my assertion on the Morris Marina to respond to the question of rarity equating to high price value. There is rarity and then there is rarity. Some rare cars are desirable, others not so much. As for my assertion of the number of cars, why don't you count them for yourself? It's called How Many Are Left and it pulls the data directly from the UK Department of Transportation. I'll let you do the search. In fact I was off by 48 cars within a margin of error of 3-5%. Data I quoted was probably from two years ago. Further, don't take my words out of context. I never said Volvos will never be worth something, I said the Volvo S70 T5M will never be as you claimed, a car "that thirty years down the road people will pay top dollar for in terms of European performance." And by that I specifically pointed to non-Volvo enthusiasts. I do not believe by any stretch of the imagination that the S70 will ever gain the prominence in the world of classic Volvos that the P1800 or the Amazon or more recently the 95 T-5R has achieved. It just won't happen. And actually, I am more of an enthusiast than you imagine my friend. My coupe, the C70 T5M, was one of 603 built worldwide during the entire 6 years of production. So yes, I feel pretty safe in saying it's a rarer car than the S70 T5M. Especially since the number you quote is just for North America. But I never said it will be worth a ton of money. That's not why I acquired it. I bought it because I love the car, the color, and the experience of driving it. The fact that the car was the introductory color presented to the press when the C70 was introduced to the world makes it more collectible to me but I don't particularly care if no one else sees it that way. Though there seems to be a growing fondness given the recent founding of a particular car club in Sweden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
550 Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 You can not liken a pre 60's era collector car to a 1998 volvo s70... You just can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trs80 Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Im just going to put this here... In the past 90 days there have been over 1,100 1998 S70 T5's for sale. Average asking price anyone? $2,401 to $3,000. ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abundant Meat Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Burn-E....You are missing the point. I was not comparing the two literally in terms of value. I was saying a modded car that was totalled and had almost nothing left of it fetched 3 times what people said it would. That was my point. The point that one it was modded and fetched money, and second that internet experts tried to claim I would get $3k while if I listened to them I would have been scammed out of nearly $6k. That was my point. Trs...how many of those were manuals? And just for the record on Swedespeed a wagon version went for $7k...your numbers are off! I'm done arguing my point. I hope the OP doesn't let people scam him out of his car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
550 Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Burn-E....You are missing the point. I was not comparing the two literally in terms of value. I was saying a modded car that was totalled and had almost nothing left of it fetched 3 times what people said it would. That was my point. The point that one it was modded and fetched money, and second that internet experts tried to claim I would get $3k while if I listened to them I would have been scammed out of nearly $6k. That was my point. Trs...how many of those were manuals? And just for the record on Swedespeed a wagon version went for $7k...your numbers are off! I'm done arguing my point. I hope the OP doesn't let people scam him out of his car. And we are saying this is a Volvo. Not a classic car. That is higly sought after in a community MUCH larger than that of the Volvo Community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trs80 Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 You do know that technically speaking a Manual is worth less? Also, real world selling/asking prices vs. what some knuckle head paid for a car means nothing in terms of tangible data. I did say average, which means some cars sold for more and some for less. Its your basic bell curve, that 7k would be less than 10% 8.5% of similar vehicles sold. (rechecked the math) I do this for a living. I could show you enough data to make your head implode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burn-E Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 And I started out by explaining what the true market price is for an S70 T5M in the described condition. I track the market extremely closely and I can rattle off prices sold for / listed for many of the T5Ms along with condition that were listed in the last few years. What trs80 (Kyle) listed is the actual listing price - he could also tell you the actual cash value of each of those cars if you wanted to ask since he works in the insurance industry. And discussing V70s in this context is useless since it's a different car with different availability in the marketplace. If you want to go down that path then we can discuss those numbers but let's not confuse the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greekone Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 I'm going to side with what most of the others have already mentioned. I too follow the market pretty well, I buy quite often too. Comparing an S70 T5M to an V70 T5M is apples to oranges. The V70 is more rare and seems to be a lot more sought after than your average S70. BTW this is coming from someone who currently owns 2 factory S70 T5M's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abundant Meat Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 I give up....Maybe if I got more vaccinations as a kid I'd be on the same wavelength.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 In 1970 when the 57 chevy was 13 yrs old (like the 98 s70 is now) it was worth about 500 bucks. It was a pedestrian grocery getter, especially in 150 and 210 model trim..If you had this argument back then people would think you were nuts if you said a 57 Bel-Aire would be worth something in 2005 ( 3x the average price of a 2 br house back then).1969 Dodge Daytona and 1970 Superbird..Very rare..but back in 1977-1982 people couldn't pay you to take them. .Its nostalgia. people my dads age wanted those back in the day, now they can afford them so they are paying whatever it takes to get one.. No I don't think that an S70 T5 with a manual will be worth a lot..(maybe a super low mileage original) most of these are approaching or exceeding 200k miles...yes compared to an NA s70 it'll fetch a bit more to an enthusiast but not anything to raise eyebrows over. they don't have the press following like the M3 or UR quattro I guess my point is, when it comes to cars, speculation is rarely accurate..pedestrian cars become collectible and no one expected it and cars you think should be collectible stay stagnant..equal year and mileage, rust free VW rabbits selling for more than Porsche 944s anyone? Mine wont be worth shit...its 85% rebuilt, well taken care of, but has been a bit modded (saved stock parts) and will have 260k on it by this time next year. ..but maybe I'll eat my words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tca217 Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 I think alot of you are missing my point or I didn't explain it the way I was thinking it. I was just saying that if someone wants something bad enough, they will pay the price. Being rare, a classic, or a race car or something like that doesn't mean anything. Heck they must have made 10 million VW buses, This was just an example when I said the thing about Barrett/Jackson and the VW bus. But SERIOUSLY, how many here can honestly say that they knew that a VW bus, (just an example) would EVER be worth more than scrap metel prices after 20 years and people would actually pay 6 digit prices for one? Certainly not me or I would be a very wealthy person now. I must have trashed more than 15 or 20 back in the day when for a couple of hundred bucks you could buy a really nice one. That was all I was trying to say. Never know, the Volvo may become the next VW bus !! .................TIM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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