Kit Vexed Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 you 2 should just date i guess... you compliment eachother splendidly ) so 300whp is impossible with 18t huh? ok. you guys say so, so i guess that's the way it is - impossible. ya'll read that right? just making sure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum 850 Posted March 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 how were you only getting 282whp on a 19t? that seems low to me? anyone else? i recall ppl getting those numbers (not the tq) on 16t's? and iPd's stage III numbers are similiar or higher on an 18t? maybe you couldve saved yourself some time and money and gotten a better tune? you wanted 300whp "reliably" when it was probably just a tune away ) What!!! Why am I only being made aware of this, only now??? A tune is all that I needed... Seriously??? Ok, I hope you understand the difference between WHP & BHP 19T is only good for: ~325-345BHP. use whatever factor you want to get what that is in WHP. I don't know of anyone with a TD04HL Turbo (15G, 16T, 18T, 19T) bolted to a stock engine (as in not built) that has achieved 300whp reliabely... The Tune I had/ have is actually amazing, I've been running 19T (supposed rod-bender) for nearly 2 years with no issues what so ever, and I am sure this tune has extracted 99% of what this turbo has to offer. If I'm not mistaken IPD Stage 3 is good for a supposed 330BHP, and that is with the 18T... WRONG. Getting 300whp out of a 19t is like getting into the olympics, it aint easy. In fact only a couple of people have ever reached or surpassed 300whp (AutoTEchnica to note) 18t would obviously make less peak hp... and the 19t is to small anyways, good job upgrading to the 20g! and getting 289whp on a 16t is just LOL Yeah 20G is a completely different beast, and this is what a real turbo should feel like... highest whp out of a 16t was like 266 iirc... 19T in my opinion was fully tapped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kit Vexed Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 ok, so you just basically answered the question for me... since when is parasitic loss on a FRONT wheel drive car more than -30bhp??? so going by your answer that iPd stage 3 is around 330bhp (and let's say you have silly things like FULL exhaust, intake, phenolic spacer, big intercooler, and just about every bolt on imaginable mated with all included stage 3 goodies) how do you figure you're not getting @ least 300whp reliably? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewhiteguy1 Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 ok, so you just basically answered the question for me... since when is parasitic loss on a FRONT wheel drive car more than -30bhp??? so going by your answer that iPd stage 3 is around 330bhp (and let's say you have silly things like FULL exhaust, intake, phenolic spacer, big intercooler, and just about every bolt on imaginable mated with all included stage 3 goodies) how do you figure you're not getting @ least 300whp reliably? i can turn the same question on you. show me a graph where someone with an 18t or a 19t has achieved 300whp or greater??? and if it is so easily possible why isn't everyong doing it omg 300whp easy waht! :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas850Turbo Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 ok, so you just basically answered the question for me... since when is parasitic loss on a FRONT wheel drive car more than -30bhp??? so going by your answer that iPd stage 3 is around 330bhp (and let's say you have silly things like FULL exhaust, intake, phenolic spacer, big intercooler, and just about every bolt on imaginable mated with all included stage 3 goodies) how do you figure you're not getting @ least 300whp reliably? 10% drivetrain power loss would be incredible... think more like 20%... which is 60hp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bergmjs Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 10% drivetrain power loss would be incredible... think more like 20%... which is 60hp. Auto's tend to be 10-20% loss, manuals 5-15% loss. Depending on gear box design, condition, fluid, etc. So 10% loss is achievable with a good condition, well designed manual gearbox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
850T5M Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Edit: nvm lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum 850 Posted March 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 ok, so you just basically answered the question for me... since when is parasitic loss on a FRONT wheel drive car more than -30bhp??? so going by your answer that iPd stage 3 is around 330bhp (and let's say you have silly things like FULL exhaust, intake, phenolic spacer, big intercooler, and just about every bolt on imaginable mated with all included stage 3 goodies) how do you figure you're not getting @ least 300whp reliably? I'm pretty sure that stage is not just the tune and a 18T. You need the exhaust, the beefed up IC, etc. All as a package to get you IPD Stage III Dyno that is a manual T5 with stage 3 IPD, advertised on IPD's website, only in their best interest to dyno a car that shows their strongest suit. So what was that about no FWD car is gonna have losses greater than 30hp??? According to my math the only way you end up with 268WHP is by having drive train losses of ~19%. personally I think that's a bit much, for our cars a FWD Manual is gonna be in the range of 12 - 16% losses, and for an auto 18 - 22% losses, these are just estimates so what good would this tune do for me? A custom tune for your specific setup is always gonna be greater than an off the shelf tune (even if it's a stage 3) I will say it again... On a stock engine (non-built) it is damn near impossible to get 300whp with TD04HL Family turbo, and I am sure I extracted 99% of what the 19T had to offer. i can turn the same question on you. show me a graph where someone with an 18t or a 19t has achieved 300whp or greater??? and if it is so easily possible why isn't everyong doing it omg 300whp easy waht! I am waitin for him to post what he (kit vexed) has done personally. If he found a dyno that generated a curve for him that showed 300+ whp. Then good for him, if he's all into just getting a number just to feel good about yourself 10% drivetrain power loss would be incredible... think more like 20%... which is 60hp. Auto would definetly be closer to 20% manual less but still more than 10% Auto's tend to be 10-20% loss, manuals 5-15% loss. Depending on gear box design, condition, fluid, etc. So 10% loss is achievable with a good condition, well designed manual gearbox. those seem a little broad of a range 20% for auto, and 15% for stick are normally pretty standard estimates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookforjoe Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 I am waitin for him to post what he (kit vexed) has done personally. If he found a dyno that generated a curve for him that showed 300+ whp. Then good for him, if he's all into just getting a number just to feel good about yourself Auto would definetly be closer to 20% manual less but still more than 10% those seem a little broad of a range 20% for auto, and 15% for stick are normally pretty standard estimates To be conservative, I figure 10% drivetrain loss, and thats with M66/AWD. As has been said, the 19T (and all TD04HL's) peak early & then drop off before 5K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dublin14 Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 So a 20G on a stock 850 engine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GltGreco Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 So a 20G on a stock 850 engine? that was my thought, im really excited to see how well it can work out because i sure dont know of many people that have done it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookforjoe Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 The exhaust outlet on the turbo is ~2.3" the flange that mates to it has the same size opening. Exhaust shop cut the straight 15G flange off the original pipe, and expanded a 2.5" exhaust pipe to fit over original casting, welded the other end to the new flange. The section of the down pipe they are re-using has another point where it swedges from 2.5 to 3.0". It is very misleading as the exhaust shop owner thought I downgraded because the opening on the turbo is smaller, but once I showed him pics of the before and after, it was clear. I don't know why Hahn setup their exhaust housings this way (probably to keep exhaust velocity high...). So the transition is 2.3 to 2.5 to 3.0" Ideally I would have liked that bend/ 90degree to be in a greater diameter, but so far this setup seems to be quite responsive. Wastegate is that that came with the the new turbo 20G, I was told that it is rated for 15psi. I have loosened the waste-gate arm and with out any boost control, just running off the spring tension only, I can comfortably run 8-9 psi. I am sure as I tighten the rod, I will get to hold at least 12psi off of the rod itself (maybe more, but that's all i need, for now). I had the same concern with the DP - Mine goes from 2.5 OD" to the 3.0" in as short a span as i could make it & still be able to get it over the studs. F'ugly, but functional I've thought about popping out the WG port cover & funnelling that into the DP, but DSM people run this as is, making more power than us, so I guess it's OK. The standard WG actuator is 10psi - unless you specifically request the 15psi - a$$K me how I know - that makes sense with the boost you recorded off the WGA; mine is 15psi if I disable the boost controller. that was my thought, im really excited to see how well it can work out because i sure dont know of many people that have done it really should be fine with a good tune - it builds peak torque after 4Krpm, not down in the low 2's :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum 850 Posted March 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 To be conservative, I figure 10% drivetrain loss, and thats with M66/AWD. As has been said, the 19T (and all TD04HL's) peak early & then drop off before 5K. 10% on a manual AWD is a little too conservative, but hey nobody is gonna ever accuse you of ever embellishing your numbers. I know in my case with a FWD Manual I use 12% as a rough estimate, its just an estimate, but somewhat realistic. With an AWD system, i wouldn't suggest that it doubles just due to the fact that you have two axles but I would estimate your manual AWD to be in and around 21 - 25%, so even if you were to use 20% that is more realistic. Just to put in perspective... lets assume for a second your car made, 500BHP, with your estimated 10% losses, you would stand to make 450WHP, and you and I know that just doesn't sound right... I would assume that you are over 300WHP, given how your build has progressed, I don't have any firm numbers but for some reason I am sure I skimmed over somewhere where you did break the 300WHP barrier (congrats by the way), lets say it was 310WHP, you're telling me your setup is only developing, 344BHP (10% losses), on an AWD Manual??? Yet 387-388BHP (20% losses), is what you get, which is a lot more reasonable, and I personally still believe it to be on the conservative side, but like I said, this is just my personal opinion, I don't have Wheel Dyno vs Engine Dyno data to provide that factual evidence... Just going off of what some extremely experienced tuners, have told me, and I have actually gone more conservative on their estimates. As an example, the IPD Stage 3 Dyno, linked earlier, shows the stock to being in and around 198WHP, FWD Manual, If I estimate 12 - 16% (as I would personally think to be an accurate estimate), you end up with: 225BHP - 236BHP. Just food for thought... So a 20G on a stock 850 engine? Yeah, I don't like my engine, so I'm looking to blow it up... I don't know why so many people are so apprehensive about going bigger. When I was thinking about putting in the 19T on my engine, it was the same thing, 19T on a stock engine, well kiss your rods good bye... 2 years later and engine is fine, and I think if you are diligent you can achieve quite a bit, its not to say you wouldn't achieve more with a built engine and reworked head, hell yeah!!! its just how much more does a built engine cost you??? its not a matter funds, believe me when you know how much I've put into this car, its not about the funds... I just think that with everything there are limits, its not like a built motor is indestructible, and its not like i need a big turbo to do in a stock engine, people have done that with a 15G plenty before. With a big turbo not spooling up till later, I realize why Volvo and all auto manufacturers go with smaller turbos on their production vehicles to minimize turbo lag, so that the average consumer is unaware that this thing even has a turbo. Well if you design a turbo to spool by 2000rpm, you can't expect to carry you through too 6000+rpm range with out running out of steam. Now a big turbo, this thing doesn't start to spool till 3000, you're at full boost by ~4000rpm. So the whole boost too early is already out of the equation. I am firm believer that whatever setup you have is only as good as the tune you run to make the most of it, and the person using it. Lots of people on here have instances of failure that could have been avoided if they were more cautious or in-tune with what their car was going through. I think with a good tune, and a knowledgeable driver/ user, anything is possible. And its about realistic goals... that was my thought, im really excited to see how well it can work out because i sure dont know of many people that have done it I can think of at least one other person that strapped a GT30 or something or other to a stock block and used T.T. and achieved 320+WHP on a stock engine. Thats not say its that easy, but it has been done, you just have to have a tune thats that more solid, and i believe TT, makes it a possibility, its not to say that I wouldn't entertain going with a complete stand alone, I will if TT, doesn't seem to be all that its been portrayed to be. Either way stay tuned because other than TT, I have some other things in the works as well. TT covers the missing piece for my engine (management). I am getting IPD goodies soon. Probably ordering this stuff in next week or two: Turbo Tuner from CJ BBK from IPD Sways from IPD Links from TKI I think that will get this car to where I want it to be. Not a whole lot left after that, well I guess there is: - Built Engine - Rear BBK - This list never ends... CRAP!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongBeach 850 Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 I think that will get this car to where I want it to be. Not a whole lot left after that, well I guess there is: - Built Engine - Rear BBK - This list never ends... CRAP!!! This in the unfortunate byproduct of modifying cars.. no matter how much money i sink into my old volvo I dont think ill ever be content is* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum 850 Posted March 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 So I got some more goodies to install this upcoming weekend, I'll let the pics do the rest... So I sold my 16" Persus with winter rubber, and got the above rims, sourced locally... Specs on the rims are: 17" 7.5" 43mm What are the original Peg specs, as I can't identify if these are replicas or the real deal. I know they are not the IPD ones as they are a 38mm offset. So what size spacers are needed to clear the Porsche BBK, if any at all??? Also here are some pics of my gauge pod, new and old (can you tell the difference)? Old... New... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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