jross Posted December 30, 2004 Report Share Posted December 30, 2004 The one thing about MS&S on an 850 is smog compliance. You can't really run MS&S on MY1996 and newer cars b/c of OBD-II laws. That's where working with the Motronic really becomes key, because it allows you to retain the OBD-II capabilities, and thus keep the car legal. In terms of deciphering the M 4.3 / 4.4 systems: hooking some sort of observational equipment in between the ECM and the rest of the car might be a good start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROB @ VMS Posted December 30, 2004 Report Share Posted December 30, 2004 Well im glad you can do it for 400 bucks then. I have not looked into MS for the fact that it isnt what i am looking for. Is the MS only a fuel computer or does it do spark as well? I havent really looked at them much. Does the MS use a Wideband 02? .. Poi thanks for points that out "again" Eric have you looked into anything else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Poi Posted December 30, 2004 Report Share Posted December 30, 2004 Well im glad you can do it for 400 bucks then. I have not looked into MS for the fact that it isnt what i am looking for. Is the MS only a fuel computer or does it do spark as well? I havent really looked at them much. Does the MS use a Wideband 02? .. Poi thanks for points that out "again" Eric have you looked into anything else?←You had said that a standalone system could not be done on the cheap, and 400$ is rediculous. Yes it can. But ya, MS does spark too. 2 switchable spark maps (as well as the usual rev limiters, launch control...). It can be used with a wideband o2, it even trims fuel to mapped target afr's, thats a nifty feature. I've been using a techedge unit on my car, basic tune can be done in a couple of hours of datalogging.edit:// Oh, fellow Cali buddy: yes, that does have a strike against it, but then again, thats a strike against all EMS. I spose the solution for all EMS is some way to mimic signals that the OBDII reader will look for, spoofing o2 voltages and copying engine RPMs, that sorta thing. Course thats illegal so ya know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricF Posted December 30, 2004 Report Share Posted December 30, 2004 Well im glad you can do it for 400 bucks then. I have not looked into MS for the fact that it isnt what i am looking for. Is the MS only a fuel computer or does it do spark as well? I havent really looked at them much. Does the MS use a Wideband 02? .. Poi thanks for points that out "again" Eric have you looked into anything else?←Well as far as standalone, not really. I don't have the mental capacity to understand multiple systems in the depth that would produce valuable information for others I'm not a very electronics-savvy guy (at this level anyway), and it's taken me forever to get what average understanding of MS and how it works... There are a number of other DIY-ish EFI systems though, but MS has the most support and biggest following AFAIK, and is also the cheapest.I am also not sure about how to make it do spark on 850s. That would be my main concern if I undertook this project... It is possible that it may be able to use the hall sensor signal to develop a trigger somehow for the spark, but I really haven't played around with it at all, nor do I know the specifics on either end (the sensor or the MS).That's why I keep mentioning that point, because otherwise you will be stuck with motronic ignition, and I'm not really sure what sort of interaction it has with the fuel side of motronic. Another possible alternative is setting up an ignition trigger on the flywheel maybe, or using a distributor from a 5-cylinder Audi with a hall sensor.There is a ton of research to be done to make this avenue realistic, and I've put some time into it, but not nearly enough. Info can be difficult to come by, though there should be absolutely tons of it online...I believe MS was initially developed for use on 5-cylinder Audis though, and I'm not sure about MSnS, but I know it works on them as well. So things can't be so different... Just lots to figure out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EOBD Posted December 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2004 QUite a good response and debate which is always a positive sign.Okay, my thinking was to go the modifying the existing Motronic system setup. Essentially the processor type is known, a generic 8051 micro, the memory if either a ROM chip on earlier cars, or FLASH on later. Both require removal for reprogramming.Now I have looked around and found that some guys, essentially the Honda Civic squads, have amended the coding to enable real time programming of their systems, primarily the maps. SOme hardware mods are requred to the ECU to get it working as such but nothing that is beyond reality. It has already been done, so why not adapt this over to the Motronic side of things. Also, remember these systems are on loads of cars so there is scope elsewhere.As for Megasquirt. This is very good for fuelling, and now some systems are doing the Spark as well. I do not know how the 5 cylinders side of things has been resolved, will need to research this a bit.So the real question, do we do the Motronic, or take on the MS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jross Posted December 30, 2004 Report Share Posted December 30, 2004 So the real question, do we do the Motronic, or take on the MS?←Personal preference, probably. I myself would prefer working with the Motronic, but that's probably just the masochist in me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricF Posted December 31, 2004 Report Share Posted December 31, 2004 QUite a good response and debate which is always a positive sign.Okay, my thinking was to go the modifying the existing Motronic system setup. Essentially the processor type is known, a generic 8051 micro, the memory if either a ROM chip on earlier cars, or FLASH on later. Both require removal for reprogramming.Now I have looked around and found that some guys, essentially the Honda Civic squads, have amended the coding to enable real time programming of their systems, primarily the maps. SOme hardware mods are requred to the ECU to get it working as such but nothing that is beyond reality. It has already been done, so why not adapt this over to the Motronic side of things. Also, remember these systems are on loads of cars so there is scope elsewhere.As for Megasquirt. This is very good for fuelling, and now some systems are doing the Spark as well. I do not know how the 5 cylinders side of things has been resolved, will need to research this a bit.So the real question, do we do the Motronic, or take on the MS?←Well if you could provide any reading on the technical side of Hondata or whatever the possible other programs we could translate for motronic, that would be very interesting indeed As far as "resolving" the 5-cylinder thing for MS, it doesn't need to be resolved at all The system was originally developed for a 5-cylinder car, so 4, 6, and 8 cylinder applications had to be resolved.The main problem as I see it is an ignition trigger. I think there's probably a very realistically easy way though... I just don't have the resources at the moment to tinker with it.If you'd like some reading material, check out:Forums for discussion of Megasquirt:http://www.msefi.comTHe Megasquirt Yahoo group:http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/megasquirt/Group for MSnShttp://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/megasquirtnspark/A great FAQ:http://www.megasquirt.info/index.htmlThe Megasquirt homepage:http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.htmlAnd I would strongly recommend getting an account on turbobricks if you are interested in this route. Below are some discussions/articles over there... The great thing about MS is that everyone is generally very accessible and willing to open correspondence with those looking for information or help. Its user support is amazing in that regard.The big MS thread (started by our Dougy Dog):http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=3995Kenny's big MSnS thread:http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=9928Doug and Kenny's compilation:http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=9927An excellent thread about tuning with narrowband by Matt Dupuis:http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=27566A more application-specific thread about Kenny's kits:http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=26720Kenny's most recent kit for sale thread:http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=30136That should last anyone who's really interested maybe a couple weeks if they have a lot of free time :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EOBD Posted December 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2004 The Honda stuff to which I refer is found athttp://www.pgmfi.org/A long time ago I ran the MS on my T5, well actually on the fuelling side cos it was still quite new then. It ran the fuelling side of things and I used the Motronic to keep control of the ignition. I did not increase boost so this was not a concern. I wanted to get a good running car on the MS. It was achieved but was a bit problematic albeit a rapid learnig curve.Thesedays MS could be made to do the lot cos essentially the MS2 is running the 68HC12 micro which is a much faster device tha nthe orignal 908 chip. And as you rightly say so many people have tinkered with the orignal MS concept that there is now a wealth of info on the subject.I am presently working through some of the original Bosch Motronic ECU firmware totry and gauge the task in hand if this route is undertaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricF Posted December 31, 2004 Report Share Posted December 31, 2004 The Honda stuff to which I refer is found athttp://www.pgmfi.org/A long time ago I ran the MS on my T5, well actually on the fuelling side cos it was still quite new then. It ran the fuelling side of things and I used the Motronic to keep control of the ignition. I did not increase boost so this was not a concern. I wanted to get a good running car on the MS. It was achieved but was a bit problematic albeit a rapid learnig curve.Thesedays MS could be made to do the lot cos essentially the MS2 is running the 68HC12 micro which is a much faster device tha nthe orignal 908 chip. And as you rightly say so many people have tinkered with the orignal MS concept that there is now a wealth of info on the subject.I am presently working through some of the original Bosch Motronic ECU firmware totry and gauge the task in hand if this route is undertaken.←Hmm, should be some good reading Thanks... Hopefully I'll have some ideas about how this could be achieved with our cars after reading through a few times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmandmman Posted December 31, 2004 Report Share Posted December 31, 2004 I say if you can do what you want to do with the motronic ecu then go for it, why bring in other components if the 4.3/4.4 can do it with modification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthonyR Posted December 31, 2004 Report Share Posted December 31, 2004 sometimes I wish I was on EOBD's level of understanding of electronics, and although I am very good, I hate programming so...But any other type of electrical stuff, I am game for... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EOBD Posted January 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 Okay, so far, I have 36096 lines of code from standard '95 T5 binary!!! Thankfully the last 8399 are MAPS so can be discarded.Running code through simulator shows that program utilises two timer counters. The internal ram of the micro is used to store count down counters for loops, along with some sort of status information. I am able to see writes to port 2 of the micro in the intialisation phase, ie power on, engine not running, so I am looking at the circuit board to see what is going on. The micro code also seems to activate and set up the serial port on the device so it maybe there is some means already to interface to the micro.Incidentally there is a second microcontroller on the board. It is the square device located directly adjacent to the eeprom chip. It is now an obsolete device so will require some searching for datasheet. It is interfaced to some of the eeprom lines so it may have some sort of interaction with same.I am thinking of posting a website for this all. Good idea?If anyone wants to help with all this let me know and I can advise you on what you need to see all of this. Oh, and a HAPPY NEW YEAR to you all!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slater Posted January 1, 2005 Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 Okay, so far, I have 36096 lines of code from standard '95 T5 binary!!! Thankfully the last 8399 are MAPS so can be discarded.Running code through simulator shows that program utilises two timer counters. The internal ram of the micro is used to store count down counters for loops, along with some sort of status information. I am able to see writes to port 2 of the micro in the intialisation phase, ie power on, engine not running, so I am looking at the circuit board to see what is going on. The micro code also seems to activate and set up the serial port on the device so it maybe there is some means already to interface to the micro.Incidentally there is a second microcontroller on the board. It is the square device located directly adjacent to the eeprom chip. It is now an obsolete device so will require some searching for datasheet. It is interfaced to some of the eeprom lines so it may have some sort of interaction with same.I am thinking of posting a website for this all. Good idea?If anyone wants to help with all this let me know and I can advise you on what you need to see all of this. Oh, and a HAPPY NEW YEAR to you all!!!!←EOSD - Did you dasm the bin file? Send me the bin file, I want to take a look at it.I am a Honda guy and was involved on pgmfi.org. One of the main coders/developers is local to me (blundar) and I was honestly going to be contacting him anyways to help me with my own ECM. I just figured everyone here used MS and was happy with it wheras I was going to edit the volvo maps directly and burn a new rom like the Honda guys do it (I use a Batronix EEPROM programmer). If its as easy as Hondas it takes about 5 minutes and the EEPROM runs about $5.When I socketed my Honda ECU I added a zif socket to make swapping chips safe, fast, and easy. I also enabled the datalogging on the stock ECU (which is disabled by default) and installed a serial datalogging port.Anyways, it all starts with the bin file from a stock Volvo rom. So if you have that we are well on our way. Send it my way and I'll see what I can do as far as getting the ball rolling...- Slater Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
550 Posted January 1, 2005 Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 EOBD knows his stuff :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackT5 Posted January 1, 2005 Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 I have the stock .bin file for my 98 S70 T5 Manual. (motronic 4.4) So if you guys wanna take a look, give me your email. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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