Zimmerman V. Florida

[Che'_Moderator]

Is life really that cheap?

Some... yup. Saves other people down the road. I like it to killing Hitler, or Manson when they were 17. Extreme cases but same logic applies.

[flyfishing3]

he MIGHT have been a product of his environment, so does that mean he deserves to die?

i vote no.

[Fishey]

he MIGHT have been a product of his environment, so does that mean he deserves to die?

i vote no.

So instead you rather effect more people with the cancer that is this type of environment? You know so he can live the thug life end up with 6 children with 4 different women and have those children end up the same way. Your view point is basically lets ensure that we get more people on welfare then we have now until there is no way for the productive society to carry the burden of the cancer society. I think without a doubt this will happen in my life time and when it does its going to be a total bloodbath. When he is dead he can't influence others, have children or continue to steal its a perfect ending to his story and I wish all thieving thugs meet the same fate. Also, all of this gives complete credibility to Zimmerman's Defense especially knowing that Trayvon enjoyed fighting.

Zimmerman said he left his truck to find a street sign so he would be able to tell the police dispatcher where he was. He told investigators that he was not following Martin but was "just going in the same direction he was" to find an address, but admitted that he had also left his truck to try to see in which direction Martin had gone. The altercation began, he said, when Martin suddenly appeared while Zimmerman was walking back to his vehicle. He described Martin at different points in the interviews as appearing "out of nowhere," "from the darkness," and as "jump[ing] out of the bushes. Zimmerman said that Martin asked, "You got a fucking problem, homie?" Zimmerman replied no, and then Martin said that he did now, and punched him. As they struggled on the ground, Zimmerman on his back with Martin on top of him, Zimmerman yelled for help "probably 50 times." Martin told him to "Shut the fuck up," as he hit him in the face and pounded his head on a concrete sidewalk. When Zimmerman tried to move off the concrete, Martin saw his gun and said "You're going to die tonight motherfucker!" Martin grabbed for the gun, but Zimmerman grabbed it first. He said after firing his weapon at Martin, he wasn't sure at first that he had hit him, so he got on top of him in order to subdue him.^] Bystanders and police arrived shortly after Martin was shot.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Fishey

[Che'_Moderator]

he MIGHT have been a product of his environment, so does that mean he deserves to die?

i vote no.

I am sure he was a product of his environment. What does that have to do with anything? If someone rapes little girls because their are fucked in the head thats wrong, but if their daddies touched them they have an excuse? I don't think so GTFO. If the arm has incurable spreading cancer you cut it off. You don't sit around trying to figure out if its from drinking too much diet cola.

[flyfishing3]

but you guys are OK with these degenerates able to get guns anywhere/anytime though.

[Che'_Moderator]

but you guys are OK with these degenerates able to get guns anywhere/anytime though.

If whoever these people are you are referring to start randomly attacking people, than I am all for taking them out too.

[Fishey]

but you guys are OK with these degenerates able to get guns anywhere/anytime though

Are you saying Zimmerman was a degenerate? He does have a history but nothing I would consider to make him a degenerate. A felon on the other hand can't own a weapon and can't purchase a weapon legally. So what exactly is your point? The degenerate in this case was Trayvon and he didn't have a gun and now he is dead the system seemed to work perfectly in this case and I am not saying it always does but disarming the public only allows the wolfs to feed on the defenseless sheep.

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so

because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy

things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that

may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always,

even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth

dying for? What is worth living for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the

United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me:

"Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive

creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the

murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate

is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans

are not inclined to hurt one another.

Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent

crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record

rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which

means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one

in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are

committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably

less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation:

We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still

remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people

who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme

provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the

pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow

into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue

shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and

someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful.? For

now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves

feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there

who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil

men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget

that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in

denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to

protect the flock and confront the wolf."

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive

citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy

for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But

what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow

citizens?

What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking

the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the

universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep,

wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes

them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the

world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire

extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids'

schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police

officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely

to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the

sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone

coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the

path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the

wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is

that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep

dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished

and removed.

The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative

democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that

there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them

where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our

airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much

rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to

hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough

high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not

have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had

nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT

teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel

those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs

feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.

Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded

hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt

differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how

many times you heard the word hero?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a

sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a

funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the

breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a

righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous

battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move

to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep

pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After

the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America

said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said,

"Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I

could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a

warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there.

You want to be able to make a difference.

There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but

he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able

to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the

population.

There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals

convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious,

predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast

majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped

walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like

big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able

to protect itself.

Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be

genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most

people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans

are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was

honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the

man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an

operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other

three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone

and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to

the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a

transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business

people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves,

ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible

evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke

Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of

police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real

sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves.

They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be

whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay,

but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your

loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If

you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt

you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want

to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious

and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive

in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

For example, many officers carry their weapons in church.? They are

well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt

holsters tucked into the small of their backs.? Anytime you go to some form of

religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer

in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your

place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.

I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the

break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other

cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I

asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at

a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally

deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen

people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day

if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do

was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the

eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself

after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer

was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and

would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for

"heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective,

or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids'

school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can

happen and that there must be safeguards against them.

Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often

their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog

quietly asks himself, "Do you have and idea how hard it would be to live with

yourself if your loved ones attacked and killed, and you had to stand there

helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically

destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is

counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and

horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth

when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't

train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy.

Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you

are psychologically shattered by your fear helplessness and horror at

your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11

book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to

terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an

insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it

isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more

unsettling."

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in

small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some

level.

And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of

his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes.

If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you

step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that

the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime.

Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you

walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to

yourself...

"Baa."

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no

dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees,

a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on

the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the

other.

Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America

took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps

toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started

taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that

continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved

ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Fishey

[Che'_Moderator]

Repost

[flyfishing3]

just like a standard right wing nut. repeat the same BS until it becomes a reality?

[Che'_Moderator]

just like a standard right wing nut. repeat the same BS until it becomes a reality?

What bs?

I think key point was:

"Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids'schools. But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial."

Here we are almost 20 years later up in arms about something that was predicted already.

[Fishey]

just like a standard right wing nut. repeat the same BS until it becomes a reality?

Typical Liberal just ignore overwhelming evidence and statistics and instead base ideology on hurty feely emotions and political correctness.

So what exactly is B.S.? Lets just talk facts and data here...

[swc75]

my 2c facts and data will not get this asshole convicted, as a Florida resident, knows, hardly anyone (other than of color) gets convicted of a crime (sic) our current Gov.

Florida juries dont like to convict.

PS in Miami it is easier to get a handgun than a pack of skitles!

[Che'_Moderator]

PS in Miami it is easier to get a handgun than a pack of skitles!

Owning the skittles will get you shot. Some would argue that makes the skittles more dangerous.

Meanwhile in Mikes neck of the woods:

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2013/05/31/ac-pkg-kaye-west-virginia-murder-plot.cnn.html

[Burn-E]

Some... yup. Saves other people down the road. I like it to killing Hitler, or Manson when they were 17. Extreme cases but same logic applies.

Nice to see Godwin's law so quickly called into play. We've gone from a petty thief and small time alleged drug dealer to Hitler and Charles Manson. BOOM!

So instead you rather effect more people with the cancer that is this type of environment? When he is dead he can't influence others, have children or continue to steal its a perfect ending to his story and I wish all thieving thugs meet the same fate.

The degenerate in this case was Trayvon and he didn't have a gun and now he is dead the system seemed to work perfectly in this case and I am not saying it always does but disarming the public only allows the wolfs to feed on the defenseless sheep.

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so

because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy

things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost.

You know who you guys sound like?

Thieves have their hands and feet cut off in punishment

Drug dealers are beheaded

How many do you think you need to kill before your problem is solved? Especially since that path fails to consider the root causes,

[Che'_Moderator]

And you think I am against the death penalty why?