2016 Presidential Campaign

[flyfishing3]

13 minutes ago, Burn-E said:

Mike I found the perfect shirt for you:

http://www.redbubble.com:

That's great.   3XL SS gift right there 

[Yellow95]

On ‎7‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 2:52 PM, Kevin. said:

Trump uses fear to control people, and it seems it's working on you Gary

Yeah I am terrified.  lol

[Kevin.]

http://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/290093-trump-wind-power-kills-all-your-birds

 

I can't anymore. Trump thinks renewable energy sources are "expensive and will lose jobs"

[Yellow95]

6 minutes ago, Kevin. said:

http://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/290093-trump-wind-power-kills-all-your-birds

 

I can't anymore. Trump thinks renewable energy sources are "expensive and will lose jobs"

Carries a lot of weight from a guy that thinks McDonalds workers should make $15 an hour.  I cant even.....

[Kevin.]

13 minutes ago, Yellow95 said:

Carries a lot of weight from a guy that thinks McDonalds workers should make $15 an hour.  I cant even.....

 

look, you need to listen to these words. You cannot live on $7.25 an hour and have any form of a decent quality of life. You just cannot do it. We are not here to talk about "oh well why is an adult working at a fast food place" because the reality is that 42% of the entire working US population makes less than $15 an hour. Frankly, I make $14.43 an hour and it's not enough (I recently had a massive change in my pay plan and have less than $100 a month left over after bills). You cannot look at me in the face and tell me that $7.25 is an acceptable wage to live on. The average cost of rent in Delaware is $800 (apartment) which leaves you with $360 for an entire month to pay for food, gas, car insurance, utilities, and medical bills. That is unacceptable. Sure, you could ride your bike or the bus to work but you still only have $360 left for the whole month, how are you supposed to be able to save up money to get out of your current living situation? Answer: you can't. Unless you work 2 or 3 jobs, and young families cannot afford to do this (especially single mothers/fathers). There is a flip side to this argument, however. Spiking the minimum wage to $15 an hour overnight is a terrible, terrible idea. It needs to be a slow, steady progress up to at least $10 (more in cities that have much higher living costs ie NYC, Philadelphia, Seattle, etc)

[Fudge_Brownie]

14 minutes ago, Yellow95 said:

Carries a lot of weight from a guy that thinks McDonalds workers should make $15 an hour.  I cant even.....

This is basically a demonstration in how not to debate. Kevin implies Trump is very wrong, and is frustrated with it... so you rebut it by bringing up something irrelevant? He didn't really even make his own opinion. He's citing someone else's rebuttal of Trump's points. Kevin's opinions are irrelevant in this context.

[Zappo]

4 minutes ago, Fudge_Brownie said:

This is basically a demonstration in how not to debate. Kevin implies Trump is very wrong, and is frustrated with it... so you rebut it by bringing up something irrelevant? He didn't really even make his own opinion. He's citing someone else's rebuttal of Trump's points. Kevin's opinions are irrelevant in this context.

He learned that from Trump.

[Burn-E]

This defense of the minimum wage is fascinating and demonstrates a failure to understand where the extra money will come from to pay those $15 or $10 per hour wages.

Kevin if suddenly everyone is making $15 per hour many of those retailers and fast food restaurants are going to fire a bunch of people and raise their prices to compensate.  They run on margins of 2-3%.  More automation will happen and your additional money earned from the raise will not stretch much farther than it does today.

And Kevin, before you declare, "But Seattle hasn't experienced this...." Read:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/29/study-raising-the-minimum-wage-did-little-for-workers-earnings-in-seattle/

http://www.npr.org/2016/04/01/472716129/one-year-on-seattle-explores-impact-of-15-minimum-wage-law

http://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/editorials/know-the-effects-of-the-minimum-wage-experiment/

[Fudge_Brownie]

1 hour ago, Burn-E said:

This defense of the minimum wage is fascinating and demonstrates a failure to understand where the extra money will come from to pay those $15 or $10 per hour wages.

This seems like an oddly simple rebuttal given your usual. But maybe it's better to first discuss a problem statement. Do you think there is a problem? Are there a lower number of advancement opportunities? Have lower income or middle income kept pace with inflation? I'll agree that burger flipper is lowest on the totem pole, but I wonder where all these burger flippers should look to leave the job. I can think of examples, I just don't think there's enough out there to make it happen. There's a finite amount of money floating around in our economy, and businesses and their executive management are progressively accumulating a greater share. How do you scale that out better? I think people like Kevin who advocate for raising the minimum wage see it as a crude way to push people in to lower-middle paying jobs.

 

 

[Burn-E]

Alden, go play psychotherapist with someone else. I've said my piece on the subject.

[Yellow95]

17 hours ago, Kevin. said:

 

look, you need to listen to these words. You cannot live on $7.25 an hour and have any form of a decent quality of life. You just cannot do it. We are not here to talk about "oh well why is an adult working at a fast food place" because the reality is that 42% of the entire working US population makes less than $15 an hour. Frankly, I make $14.43 an hour and it's not enough (I recently had a massive change in my pay plan and have less than $100 a month left over after bills). You cannot look at me in the face and tell me that $7.25 is an acceptable wage to live on. The average cost of rent in Delaware is $800 (apartment) which leaves you with $360 for an entire month to pay for food, gas, car insurance, utilities, and medical bills. That is unacceptable. Sure, you could ride your bike or the bus to work but you still only have $360 left for the whole month, how are you supposed to be able to save up money to get out of your current living situation? Answer: you can't. Unless you work 2 or 3 jobs, and young families cannot afford to do this (especially single mothers/fathers). There is a flip side to this argument, however. Spiking the minimum wage to $15 an hour overnight is a terrible, terrible idea. It needs to be a slow, steady progress up to at least $10 (more in cities that have much higher living costs ie NYC, Philadelphia, Seattle, etc)

Is that McDonalds fault that you cant make it on their wage?  If you want more , don't expect somebody to give it to you.  Go out and do more. 

14 hours ago, Fudge_Brownie said:

This seems like an oddly simple rebuttal given your usual. But maybe it's better to first discuss a problem statement. Do you think there is a problem? Are there a lower number of advancement opportunities? Have lower income or middle income kept pace with inflation? I'll agree that burger flipper is lowest on the totem pole, but I wonder where all these burger flippers should look to leave the job. I can think of examples, I just don't think there's enough out there to make it happen. There's a finite amount of money floating around in our economy, and businesses and their executive management are progressively accumulating a greater share. How do you scale that out better? I think people like Kevin who advocate for raising the minimum wage see it as a crude way to push people in to lower-middle paying jobs.

 

 

That's a copout for those who are too lazy to advance.  You are assuming that the entire sample is TRYING to do better.  The fact is they are not.

17 hours ago, Fudge_Brownie said:

This is basically a demonstration in how not to debate. Kevin implies Trump is very wrong, and is frustrated with it... so you rebut it by bringing up something irrelevant? He didn't really even make his own opinion. He's citing someone else's rebuttal of Trump's points. Kevin's opinions are irrelevant in this context.

This is a perfect example of you not knowing what you are talking about.  Your fascination with me is kind of a turn on though.  Please carry on.

17 hours ago, Zappo said:

He learned that from Trump.

Says a guy blindly following a corrupt bitch.  lol

16 hours ago, Burn-E said:

This defense of the minimum wage is fascinating and demonstrates a failure to understand where the extra money will come from to pay those $15 or $10 per hour wages.

Kevin if suddenly everyone is making $15 per hour many of those retailers and fast food restaurants are going to fire a bunch of people and raise their prices to compensate.  They run on margins of 2-3%.  More automation will happen and your additional money earned from the raise will not stretch much farther than it does today.

And Kevin, before you declare, "But Seattle hasn't experienced this...." Read:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/29/study-raising-the-minimum-wage-did-little-for-workers-earnings-in-seattle/

http://www.npr.org/2016/04/01/472716129/one-year-on-seattle-explores-impact-of-15-minimum-wage-law

http://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/editorials/know-the-effects-of-the-minimum-wage-experiment/

Kevin Alden and I guess George will never understand these economic facts.   I gotta believe they see them but the Trump hate is too strong to come to grips with the real world.   I understand you don't like Trump.  Now you have to understand that I don't care and you REALLY need to understand that this free shit socialist nonsense, while a beautiful thought, isn't realistic.  If you want more from life then DO more with it. 

14 hours ago, Burn-E said:

Alden, go play psychotherapist with someone else. I've said my piece on the subject.

He is like that guy with shoe mirrors that follows girls around trying to look up their skirts.  No threat of being relevant but you still want to see him get slapped.

[Timbo Slice]

17 hours ago, Kevin. said:

 

look, you need to listen to these words. You cannot live on $7.25 an hour and have any form of a decent quality of life. You just cannot do it. We are not here to talk about "oh well why is an adult working at a fast food place" because the reality is that 42% of the entire working US population makes less than $15 an hour. Frankly, I make $14.43 an hour and it's not enough (I recently had a massive change in my pay plan and have less than $100 a month left over after bills). You cannot look at me in the face and tell me that $7.25 is an acceptable wage to live on. The average cost of rent in Delaware is $800 (apartment) which leaves you with $360 for an entire month to pay for food, gas, car insurance, utilities, and medical bills. That is unacceptable. Sure, you could ride your bike or the bus to work but you still only have $360 left for the whole month, how are you supposed to be able to save up money to get out of your current living situation? Answer: you can't. Unless you work 2 or 3 jobs, and young families cannot afford to do this (especially single mothers/fathers). There is a flip side to this argument, however. Spiking the minimum wage to $15 an hour overnight is a terrible, terrible idea. It needs to be a slow, steady progress up to at least $10 (more in cities that have much higher living costs ie NYC, Philadelphia, Seattle, etc)

Why is McDonalds the only topic of your argument? If you're not happy with where you are, there are plenty of opportunities to better yourself like learning a trade. It's disgusting how many people are unwilling to learn a trade that can make them 6 figures annually simply because they think the job is beneath them.

An electrician on my project in NJ made $170k last year, and guess what? He doesn't have a college degree (he dropped out of HS and got his GED at 20). Just because you're too impatient to better yourself by taking some trade classes or getting a certification on the side in something (electrician, plumbing, mechanics, welding, machining, etc.) on your own time is not my fault, Gary's fault, or anyone's for that matter. Stop bitching. Stop taking the "next available position that will hire you". If you want to make more money, you are going to need to go out and get it by first bettering yourself. This world will not spoon feed you. You need to listen to these words.

[Fudge_Brownie]

3 hours ago, Yellow95 said:

That's a copout for those who are too lazy to advance.  You are assuming that the entire sample is TRYING to do better.  The fact is they are not.

My own example shows 50% of the population in middle class. I'm not saying that no one can advance. I see many people who could have a better job but choose not to (coughkevincough). And there's plenty who aren't trying at all. But worrying about them is like worrying about the 0.5% of theft from a Walmart store on principle. It's shooting ourselves in the foot pinching pennies. I'm more concerned about shrinking opportunity. That's different from claiming it doesn't exist.

Half of me wants to slash and burn support programs, and ditch the minimum wage just to see the chaos. Primarily because I think it would force people to suddenly give a shit. The catch is that the new voters will likely vote for which ever class president gives them the most free candy.

[Burn-E]

19 hours ago, Fudge_Brownie said:

Take a close look at this graphic.  The narrative is the the Middle is getting squeezed and people are falling out into the Lower and Lowest demographic segments. The narrative you're proposing isn't supported by the data:

Note that in 1971 16% were in Lowest and in 2015 it grew to 20%.  But don't forget that as the Middle shrank, the Upper Middle grew from 10 to 12% and the Highest grew from 4 to 9%.

That means the bottom two tiers grew from 25% to 29% while the top two tiers grew from 14% to 21%. Which means the upper tiers absorbed more of the shrinkage of the middle class than the lower tier.

Just depends on how you read what the data is telling you.

[Fudge_Brownie]

33 minutes ago, Burn-E said:

Take a close look at this graphic.  The narrative is the the Middle is getting squeezed and people are falling out into the Lower and Lowest demographic segments. The narrative you're proposing isn't supported by the data:

Note that in 1971 16% were in Lowest and in 2015 it grew to 20%.  But don't forget that as the Middle shrank, the Upper Middle grew from 10 to 12% and the Highest grew from 4 to 9%.

That means the bottom two tiers grew from 25% to 29% while the top two tiers grew from 14% to 21%. Which means the upper tiers absorbed more of the shrinkage of the middle class than the lower tier.

Just depends on how you read what the data is telling you.

My narrative is that the growth in the bottom end is a lack of opportunity for them to move in to the middle. Not that they're falling in to the lower. I think what's happening is they're born in to lower and stay there. That one chart isn't the most interesting though because it doesn't cover wealth distribution. And it's been a bit since I looked at the data, but IIRC the middle block is getting compressed to the left side of the salary range.

I agree that the upper has also grown, but I think that's going to correlate with the baby boomer's reaching their peak income levels. I theorize that as they die off, less genx'ers are going to see the same. I haven't looked for or seen data to support this part though.

I'm also trying to shift this discussion from herp-derp try harder. Because even if the middle class was 1%, and the lower class was 90%, I think some people would still be mumbling 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps' with their fingers in their ears.