2016 Presidential Campaign

[Zappo]

Not sure why I am being dragged into this as I don't believe I have ever posted anything about minimum wage.  

Also, Gary, if anyone is blindly following someone, it is you following Trump.  I have never said who I was going to vote for, I have only said I will never vote for Trump.

[Matty Moo]

12 hours ago, Timbo Slice said:

Why is McDonalds the only topic of your argument? If you're not happy with where you are, there are plenty of opportunities to better yourself like learning a trade. It's disgusting how many people are unwilling to learn a trade that can make them 6 figures annually simply because they think the job is beneath them.

An electrician on my project in NJ made $170k last year, and guess what? He doesn't have a college degree (he dropped out of HS and got his GED at 20). Just because you're too impatient to better yourself by taking some trade classes or getting a certification on the side in something (electrician, plumbing, mechanics, welding, machining, etc.) on your own time is not my fault, Gary's fault, or anyone's for that matter. Stop bitching. Stop taking the "next available position that will hire you". If you want to make more money, you are going to need to go out and get it by first bettering yourself. This world will not spoon feed you. You need to listen to these words.

Exactly.  You gotta have what people need and something that they can't train you in a week or so.  People misunderstand trades and think you'll be doing one thing forever, when in reality you can branch off in a few directions in one trade.  Shit, there's people out there making $70k/year washing windows and repairing screens.  You have to have something that people want and can't create themselves.

I know a lot of people that came out of the gutter and are doing very well because they made an effort to improve themselves.  

[Timbo Slice]

Precisely. But since those trades aren't generally seen as successful or high class in this country, it deters a lot of kids in high school from pursuing those careers. Listen, I understand working on people's plumbing in the middle of, lets say, Rochester, wouldn't be the most luxurious job. The houses here are quite a bit older, at least downtown, and working on old piping from the 40s and 30s might not be the easiest thing. But guess what? That means you can charge a shit load more.

Kevin, if you want a better income, it can be achieved. You just need to open your eyes. Learn a trade. Take some classes at a community college. Shit, go to Barnes and Noble and read about different things like electricity, physics, fluid flow, etc., FOR FREE. Figure out what interests you and pursue it. But don't sit behind your computer and complain that your career working at a BMW dealership isn't good enough. You took that job with no experience other than working on your own car and your personal interest in cars. You cannot honestly sit there and tell me it's the government's fault that you're not doing well. The job simply required next to zero qualifications, and thus it pays out as such.

You, and only you, are accountable for your actions. It's the same thing as getting in trouble with the law. Was it the arresting officer's fault that you got a DUI? Nope. It's your fault, and you are accountable for your actions. What did you do when that happened? I hope the answer is you stopped drinking and driving. But that is the kind of positive action you (hopefully) took to remedy an otherwise negative situation in your life. It's time to do that again, or just stop complaining that you're not making enough money. You just aren't working to your potential.

[Fudge_Brownie]

I don't think his own path should negate his argument. But since it's going that direction, I am a bit curious if he'd share his plan. If the current job isn't enough, are there promotional opportunities you hope to advance to from that job? And do you know that they pay notably better? I have a feeling you're the type to keep trying at what you're doing without stepping back and realizing it'll never work. You seem like a people person - sales jobs in certain fields usually have good potential. And some trades seem to pay well enough that I feel bad for those that paid for 4 years of college, and 4 years of lost earning potential, and come out struggling to find a paper pushing job because they were misguided.

[ErikS]

I find the life advice from those <35 w/o kids "interesting."

On topic did Trump eat any babies with a knife and fork or steal from any poor people today?  Haven't been on the news sites.

[Timbo Slice]

Where it wouldn't make sense for someone like you with a wife and kids to pick up a new trade or switch careers, it might me much more viable for someone who doesn't have those responsibilities. It's all relative.

Am I naive in believing that if you want to change your career path, you can, and that there is a proper time and place for it? Because that's what I take from your comment.

And no, he's just bragging about having seen an Iranian video regarding a payment from the US to Iran settling a decades old dispute over a weapons deal, which is in fact wildly false and is rather a video filmed in Geneva showing three Americans who have recently been released from Iranian prison.

[ErikS]

Just now, Timbo Slice said:

Am I naive in believing that if you want to change your career path, you can, and that there is a proper time and place for it? Because that's what I take from your comment.

Not, that's not what I meant. It's just not as easy for some as it is for others - its not a switch that can be flipped and people's lives can be complicated.  You can get stuck in a routine and its not super easy to break free from it.

[Timbo Slice]

3 minutes ago, ErikS said:

Not, that's not what I meant. It's just not as easy for some as it is for others - its not a switch that can be flipped and people's lives can be complicated.  You can get stuck in a routine and its not super easy to break free from it.

Thanks for clarifying, and I agree with you. However it is my belief that IF someone truly wants to make that switch, the opportunities are there. I just really despise people crying that the government needs to help them live a normal life when they don't do shit about their own situation.

[Burn-E]

OK, this is hilarious. I give you Donald and Hobbes:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DonaldandHobbes/

http://www.filmsforaction.org/articles/donald-and-hobbes-is-genius/

 

[Kevin.]

On 8/2/2016 at 3:54 PM, Burn-E said:

This defense of the minimum wage is fascinating and demonstrates a failure to understand where the extra money will come from to pay those $15 or $10 per hour wages.

Kevin if suddenly everyone is making $15 per hour many of those retailers and fast food restaurants are going to fire a bunch of people and raise their prices to compensate.  They run on margins of 2-3%.  More automation will happen and your additional money earned from the raise will not stretch much farther than it does today.

And Kevin, before you declare, "But Seattle hasn't experienced this...." Read:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/29/study-raising-the-minimum-wage-did-little-for-workers-earnings-in-seattle/

http://www.npr.org/2016/04/01/472716129/one-year-on-seattle-explores-impact-of-15-minimum-wage-law

http://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/editorials/know-the-effects-of-the-minimum-wage-experiment/

you missed the last part of my statement, that we cannot just go to $15 an hour immediately because the economy cannot handle that whatsoever. It needs to be a slow increase over a 5-10 year period. $10 would be a nice start, $7.25 is embarassing

20 hours ago, Matty Moo said:

Exactly.  You gotta have what people need and something that they can't train you in a week or so.  People misunderstand trades and think you'll be doing one thing forever, when in reality you can branch off in a few directions in one trade.  Shit, there's people out there making $70k/year washing windows and repairing screens.  You have to have something that people want and can't create themselves.

I know a lot of people that came out of the gutter and are doing very well because they made an effort to improve themselves.  

 

what about people who cannot do hard labor jobs? My wife has fibromyalgia, she can't go wash windows or be an electrician as she can only stand for about 10 minutes at a time without being in excruciating pain

[Burn-E]

You missed the whole point of my statement.  There are some jobs that should never be considered as positions that are intended to support someone to make a full living.  Just because someone will pay you for a job does not mean that a total lack of skills means you should be paid as much as those who have developed significant skills that contribute to society.

Let's evaluate who is making less than $15 an hour:

Note that they are all essentially people who have minimal skills.  Now, let's ask ourselves what should we do to ensure people are going to be able to make a living?  Should we pay them more or should we encourage them to improve their skills?  Because let's think about the jobs that are paid ~$15/hour and have significant skills / specific temperament to be successful (source, search on indeed or similar job sites for wage $15 or more):

Paramedic

Bank Teller

Drywall Finisher (entry level)

Cable TV Installer

Payroll Clerk

School Bus Driver

Overnight Awake Mental Health Patient Rehabilitator

Medical Receptionist

Warehouse Receiving Material Handler

Retail Merchandiser

Machinist

Swim Instructor

Home Appraiser Trainee (entry level)

Insurance Inspector

Note: all of these jobs are in flyover country like Minnesota, Iowa, Kansas, Oklahoma.  These jobs actually pay more than $15/hr in larger cities. Also note that many of these are not heavy labor positions.

Now riddle me this Kevin, should guys who flip hamburgers earn as much as these people or is the market actually paying those low skilled jobs what they're worth? Perhaps the message and effort should be to ask ourselves why these people aren't developing into skilled workers who could actually earn $15 / hour?  And then invest in that effort rather than just giving a hand out.

[Burn-E]

Essentially, this is what you're saying Kevin:

[Fudge_Brownie]

The core debate is that Kevin believes a minimum wage should also be a living wage.

The part I never understood about the anti-minimum wage job argument that 'look at these skilled people who make that much' is that in theory, the increase in minimum wage could gives those skilled laborers leverage to demand a raise. And I think that could scale up the job market. 

23 minutes ago, Kevin. said:

you missed the last part of my statement, that we cannot just go to $15 an hour immediately because the economy cannot handle that whatsoever. It needs to be a slow increase over a 5-10 year period. $10 would be a nice start, $7.25 is embarassing

what about people who cannot do hard labor jobs? My wife has fibromyalgia, she can't go wash windows or be an electrician as she can only stand for about 10 minutes at a time without being in excruciating pain

The opposite argument of what I'm making above is that you scale the minimum wage upward and it just drives up everyone's costs. Now the plumber and the handy-man are charging more, so the landlord has more expenses, so he's charging more for rent. And a bunch of people suddenly have more money so they drive up the cost of rent. Sure you're getting paid more, but cost of living may scale with it. When you advocate for raising the minimum wage, where do you think that money will come from?

Your wife is arguably an unusual example, not the norm. But I bet if we dug deeper, there's desk jobs out there. Perhaps 911 dispatcher as an example.

[Burn-E]

Kevin's wife is an experienced military veteran who will be honorably discharged.  That being the case there are many employment opportunities open to her that won't require hard labor. 

Your argument Alden is that the market is inefficiently aligning wages with skills.  While I would agree that financialization has created incentives to wildly over compensate CEOs I have a hard time accepting the argument lower tiered.

Oh and this is too good not to share:

Gary, perhaps you want to explain how it comes that a candidate for Commander in Chief directly attacks the parents of a fallen soldier?

Historically many mourning parents have spoken angrily out at a President (consider Cindy Sheehan but Trump is the first nominee or President to personally and publicly attack back. I come from a military family and this is beyond disgraceful.

[gmsgltr]

I'm not looking at the numbers, I don't have a citation page, I don't give a fuck about either presidential candidate this time around, I also don't think the majority of us are too far off here... minimum wage should increase. Not to $15 though. People are in control to an extent, but there are breaks, and a thing called luck, and being "unlucky" as well. Life isn't easy.

The problem I see, especially with others around my age (27) today is that there is MUCH more competition and more monetary distractions today...

My parents, when they were around my age, weren't paying for: Netflix, internet, fancy cell phones and service plans with fucking insurance for when you drop it in the toilet, special car insurance, $4 coffees, craft fucking beer, organic artisan handmade natural blah blah t-shirts, every other night out eating dinner, and the list goes on... there are a considerable amount of distractions available today that eat at your monthly earnings. The only person I can REALLY judge here is myself. Yeah I do millennial shit, but I can hold myself from the distractions. To an extent.