bob82pigdog Posted March 6, 2015 Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 I'm in the middle of having a shop replace my clutch with a SPEC stage 2 (part # SO132) for a 1998 pre VIN break single mass flywheel car. While they are at it I asked them to re-install a more fresh M56 from a 98 S70 internal slave car instead of my old transmission which has a bad 2nd gear. Basically they are converting my factory single mass flywheel external slave car to an internal slave car. They just called today and said it's all back together but the car won't go into gear. Frick. They said they bled the line twice and it looks fine and that the clutch pedal feels fine as well. They think I ordered the wrong parts because they say since the transmission is from a post VIN break car it needs a post VIN break clutch and pressure plate. I tried to convinced them that what matters is the clutch and pressure plate need to match the corresponding flywheel style and that the transmission itself doesn't matter. I told them plenty of people have swapped their dual mass flywheels to singles still using the internal slave. Last week I gave them the newer transmission with a new internal slave/ throw out bearing installed and a new clutch line for the internal slave cars. I kept the same clutch master cylinder installed since I couldn't find evidence that it needed to be changed for the internal slave swap. Many people with factory dual mass flywheels and internal slaves have successfully swapped to single mass flywheels and a corresponding SMF clutch. But, as far as I know, the only thing different between my car and one of those newer swapped cars at this point is the clutch master cylinder. There are 2 part numbers for them based on the VIN breaks and they look slightly different. My theory is that the older style clutch master isn't supplying enough pressure or displacing enough fluid to move the throw out bearing into the pressure plate fingers, thus keeping it from going into gear. I'm thinking if I have them swap on the newer style clutch master I might be OK. How does that theory sound? After I installed the Quaife and resealed the case, I turned the input shaft and shifted through all the gears. Everything felt fine. If it's not going into gear it's gotta be something with the slave/ throw out not traveling enough, right? What else could keep it from getting into gear? Could anything be going on with the shift cables maybe? I'm going to stop by the shop first thing in the morning and see if I can see what the TOB is doing by peeling back the dust cover where the clutch line goes into the transmission case. Depending on what I can see with the TOB, I might try shifting with the levers on top of the transmission to see if it will go in gear. Let me know what ideas you have! See different clutch master cylinders here: http://www.eeuroparts.com/Parts/43753/Clutch-Master-Cylinder-KG19004704/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnight Caller Posted March 6, 2015 Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 Sorry to ask a stupid question but I've seen that before... are you sure they installed the clutch disc correctly and not the other way around ? There's a stamp on the disk saying "FW SIDE" and "GEARBOX SIDE". Those I know installed it inversed and couldn't change gears. Try this: Car on ground, push the clutch all the way and try to engage 1st gear, forcing it A LITTLE. If the gear stick doesn't enter 1st gear gate, but the car starts moving, your clutch doesn't disengage ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackT5 Posted March 6, 2015 Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 Don't change the master, it really shouldn't make a difference.Something is messed up with the install. Either it's not bled right, they didn't install the shifter cables correctly, or didn't install the clutch correctly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob82pigdog Posted March 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 No stupid questions at this point! I saw the stickers on the clutch that you are talking about, but I have no idea if they installed it properly. That's exactly why I hate paying a shop to work on my cars. I just don't have the time or space to do the work right now so my hand was forced. I visited the shop this morning. The clutch pedal feels great. With the motor on and the clutch pedal pushed in the shifter will not go into gear. It doesn't grind, it just feels like something is preventing the shifter cables from budging. But with the motor off I can move the shifter through the gears so I think the cables are fine. If I move the shifter into first with the motor off, then turn the motor on I can let off the clutch and first gear has been engaged and the car lurches forward. But then I can't get it back out of first until I turn the car back off. I think the shop technician is pretty pissed at me, and he says the newer style throwout bearing doesn't have enough throw to engage the pressure plate fingers. I don't know how all the other guys with DMF setups convert their cars to single mass and keep the internal slave then?! That brings me back to the clutch master thing. That's the only thing I can see different about my car and one of the newer swapped cars. I'm gonna have them install the newer style master from my parts car and see if that changes anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob82pigdog Posted March 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 (edited) Don't change the master, it really shouldn't make a difference. Something is messed up with the install. Either it's not bled right, they didn't install the shifter cables correctly, or didn't install the clutch correctly. That's what all the evidence points to! But since I didn't play by the book, they think me Frankenstein-ing the parts together is the problem! The guy is not an enthusiast so he is thinking of everything from the perspective that, "These parts weren't designed to go together, this guy's an idiot. It's his fault it's not working because he told us to install these wrong parts." They are not going to think outside of the box. If they did actually mess something up on the install, how could I prove to them that they did? I'm kind of screwed. I might have to tow home a car that I just dropped a lot of coin on that doesn't run. My last shot is to try and measure the throw of the two different style bearings on my old transmission. If I can show them that the throw is the same, maybe we can figure something else out. Only problem is their time isn't free. They're not my buddies trying to help me figure this thing out. How do you know the clutch master won't make a difference though? I couldn't find a lot of solid information on them and how they are different. Edited March 6, 2015 by bob82pigdog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piston Slapper Posted March 6, 2015 Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 Sounds like the messed up the install. Pay with a credit card, take it somewhere else, preferably a Volvo specialist that's friendly to mods and is used to working with manual transmissions and have him pull the clutch and see if they put it in backwards. If they did mess something up, which they almost certainly did, call your card company and do a chargeback on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob82pigdog Posted March 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 Sounds like the messed up the install. Pay with a credit card, take it somewhere else, preferably a Volvo specialist that's friendly to mods and is used to working with manual transmissions and have him pull the clutch and see if they put it in backwards. If they did mess something up, which they almost certainly did, call your card company and do a chargeback on them. All right. This sounds like a decent plan. I haven't found a mod friendly Volvo specialist in my area, but there is another decent indy Volvo shop that I could call. I'll see what they think. Is the most likely culprit that the clutch disc was installed backwards? What other things could have been incorrectly installed? Is there any way to prove that the throw out distance is the same between the two styles of bearings? Or does anyone have positive proof that the throw out distance is the same? This is the only thing that the shop's argument hinges on; that the new style bearing does not have enough reach to engage the pressure plate. The guy said the stack height of the dual mass, clutch and pressure, plate is higher than a single mass, thus the newer style bearing doesn't throw as far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackT5 Posted March 6, 2015 Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 There have to be at least a dozen people on here that have converted from dual mass to single mass clutch setups and retained the internal slave cylinder, myself included. If installed correctly, there should be no issue aside from maybe some clutch/gear box chatter.You said you gave them the internal slave trans with the slave already installed, so either they put the clutch disc in backwards or it's just not bled correctly. ASk them to bleed it again when you're there, or go bleed it yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnight Caller Posted March 6, 2015 Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 Another idea. Remove the return spring from the clutch pedal (It's easy for you to do). If they are right, and the throwout bearing is not reaching far enough, you should have a big part of the pedal travel "dead". As in "floppy pedal". I suggested to remove the spring because that way you can really "feel" the pedal travel. If as soon as you push the pedal, you feel resistance, then there is pressure in the system and therefore the pressure plate is pushed by the throwout bearing, and they did something wrong when putting things back. When I had air in the system I pushed the pedal and it never came back by itself,it remained down and had to raise it back by hand. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann Posted March 6, 2015 Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 Thing is, if you put the friction in backwards it will function for a short while. There was mentioning of to little stroke for the TOB which almost sounds like they installed a DM PP of SM flywheel instead of the higher SM PP. (If that is even possible.. ?? ) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ol' Dirty Noodle Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 So I'll say this, I converted the S40 from DMF to SMF when I did the manual swap. Used the internal slave bled it and it's been great. When I first went with the S60R setup with Viva SMF and stock S60R clutch the deck height was too short, the slave wasn't touching the Pressure plate . Therefore when adding brake fluid it just filled the line and slave completely and the pedal was rock hard because there was nowhere for the fluid to move as the slave was fully extended and filled with fluid. This was because Tasca had sent me a kit with an S60R disc and T5 PP, these setups just don't work together. Your issue is almost certainly clutch related, maybe they didn't follow the proper tightening and torque specs when installing the pressure plate. Another member had that issue, same thing said pedal felt great but his clutch wouldn't disengage, turned out he didn't follow the correct pattern or torque specs when installing the clutch. Edit: here's the thread '?do=embed' frameborder='0' data-embedContent>> 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob82pigdog Posted March 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 The indy Volvo shop said they were done troubleshooting because they "know" the problem is my non OEM setup. They gave me two options: 1.) Bring them the dual mass flywheel from the parts car to convert my wagon to full OEM combination or reinstall the original transmission. F**kers. The tech that was working on my car was too high up on his anti "hot rodders" horse to see things clearly. Definitely not an outside the box kind of guy. I found a transmission shop around the corner from the first shop and I'm getting the car towed there tomorrow. I talked with the manager and he seemed very knowledgeable and understood what I'm trying to do with my transmission slave swap. He seemed confident he could find the problem one way or another and provide written documentation if they find the first shop's work in error. Unless something is wrong with the clutch or pp SPEC sent, either the shop screwed something up with the install, or I screwed something up when I put the transmission back together. I'm anxious for the transmission shop to assess the situation. I just hope it's not internal to the transmission and something that is my fault. Thanks for sharing that link Dirty Noodle. Very similar to what my car is doing, but hope they don't have to take everything apart again! I'm still crossing my fingers that it's something simple!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookforjoe Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 N I think the shop technician is pretty pissed at me, and he says the newer style throwout bearing doesn't have enough throw to engage the pressure plate fingers. I This will happen if they installed the post vin break clutch & PP with the SMF. The stack height is all wrong!!! Slaves, master variations have NO bearing on this. They need to install the SMF PP & disc, done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piston Slapper Posted March 9, 2015 Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 This will happen if they installed the post vin break clutch & PP with the SMF. The stack height is all wrong!!! Slaves, master variations have NO bearing on this. They need to install the SMF PP & disc, done. I'm in the middle of having a shop replace my clutch with a SPEC stage 2 (part # SO132) for a 1998 pre VIN break single mass flywheel car. First sentence of the first post... he's got the right clutch kit, unless SPEC screwed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob82pigdog Posted March 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2015 H, I actually found an older post of yours saying that the masters made no difference. Only difference is that nub for a safety switch. So I'm off that idea now. Thanks for the clarification. Unless they shelved these shiny new parts I gave them and installed something else, my car should definitely have a pre VIN break clutch and PP correctly mated with a SMF. Is there anything fishy looking about these parts? I sure don't think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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