Militarization of Police - Yes or No?

[caanglin]

but again it comes back to hiring practices and training.

Nice and vague. 
"Ok sure we shot another black kid. But know we are now looking at our hiring practices."

I think the problem goes a little deeper than who Pam in HR hires. 

Edited July 29, 2015 by fivex84

[Fudge_Brownie]

Kev, i do not want the police to just walk in my house, and if they have a justified reason to come in, Ok.

Why would an officer approach me with his gun drawn?

What if he would of gotten into a high speed chase and killed your family.

Did you read the article in the original post? t describes a scenario where they arguably had little reason to come in, nevermind with guns drawn. But I'm also picking on your comment about a tank - I don't see it being too different from an officer with a gun sticking out of their chest.

Your high speed chase comment is akin to a "but think of the children" plea. I'm unclear on why we should shoot people because they might drive fast, and might do it where there are children present in a way they could be hit. and a criminal might run them over while the criminal runs from a traffic stop. And that assumes the police give chase.

I'm with ya on the hiring angle, but who is doing the hiring? The police who don't think this is a problem. I don't think we should blame all police. I can believe more than half are good, or at least well intended. But this is a blurry situation where many problemed ones are not hollywood-crooked. I think many really believe they are acting within the law, according to department practices, and that it will result in a better society. What do you do if the problem is systemic? How do you hire quality peace officers if the reputation is so tarnished, and the high level officers still believe in an iron fist?

 

[Burn-E]

The problem may very well be the training and direction by senior law enforcement.  That was the point of the original article.  So saying they need more training, unless the strategies and training are dramatically changed, does not sound like an answer to me.

Rhoads, the Fairfax County police lieutenant, was upfront about this mind-set. He explained that it was standard procedure to point guns at suspects in many cases to protect the lives of police officers. Their firearm rules were different from mine; they aimed not to kill but to intimidate. According toreporting by The Washington Post, those rules are established in police training, which often emphasizes a violent response over deescalation. Recruits spend an average of eight hours learning how to neutralize tense situations; they spend more than seven times as many hours at the weapons range.

Why are cops in a hurry?  Why not work to slow down a situation rather than escalate it?

[caanglin]

This is good listen while doing something else. 

[Burn-E]

Interesting perspective from Wood in this article:

You were in the Marines. There has been a lot of talk of police militarization lately. I’ve had law enforcement leaders who are concerned about militarization tell me that bringing in veterans to become cops contributes to the problem. But I’ve also had some police chiefs and sheriffs tell me that former military guys are actually a good influence on rogue cops. What do you think?

Well first, let me address the military equipment. The police don’t need it, and they have no business having it.

But when it comes to former military joining law enforcement, I’m in the camp that says they’re going to be better when it comes to shootings and using force. Bad police shootings are almost always the result of a cop being afraid. Look at Walter Scott, Michael Brown, the South Carolina state trooper shooting — those were all cops who were afraid, and fired their weapons out of fear. The military strips you of fear. Here’s the thing: There’s nothing brave or heroic about shooting Tamir Rice the second you pull up to the scene. You know what is heroic? Approaching the young kid with the gun. Putting yourself at risk by waiting a few seconds to be sure that the kid really is a threat, that the gun is a real gun. The hero is the cop who hesitates to pull the trigger.

That’s where I think a military background can help. Very few of these bad shootings were by cops with a military background. There may have been a few, but I can’t think of one.

And then this:

During the Ferguson protests, some military veterans were critical of what they saw in the images coming out of St. Louis County. They said the cops there were doing things that would never fly in the military, like pointing their guns at peaceful protesters. I’ve heard similar criticism of drug raids by veterans who conducted raids in Afghanistan and Iraq — they dislike the term police militarization because they say police raids in America are far more aggressive than what the military does overseas.

Oh sure. You see these raids where the cops are lasering each other. They have their guns pointed at each other. The raid starts, and they’re pointing their guns at suspects, kids, bystanders. You point your gun at someone you don’t intend to kill once in Close Quarters Battle school and they’ll throw you out.

 

[theForgottenone]

Would the use of police body camera can reduce the incident of police use of excessive deadly force 

 

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2015/03/oregon_would_set_guidelines_fo.html

Edited July 29, 2015 by theForgottenone

[caanglin]

I have feeling the cameras will "malfunction". 

In GA if your a baby and don't get out of the way of a flash bang that was thrown in your crib... it's your fault. 

Edited July 29, 2015 by fivex84

[Timbo Slice]

The part about "the true hero will put himself in harm's way to be sure that the kid really is a threat before taking potentially deadly action" [paraphrased] really hits home to me.

In my opinion (flamesuit on), it seems like a lot of these unnecessary shootings are by pussy cops who are afraid to be in harm's way despite the fact that it's part of their job description. They're not hesitating to shoot someone before analyzing the situation, and that's disgusting. You simply do not shoot someone unless you absolutely have to protect yourself. It's silly, but a quote from Topgun sticks in my head, where Cmdr. "Stinger" Jordan says over the radio to Maverick "Do not fire until fired upon". Now of course this isn't 100% what police should do as they would likely (and hopefully) take action before the enemy fires a weapon, but it sums up the idea of do not engage an enemy until you're truly sure they're your enemy.

Yesterday, our world saw an innocent man get shot in the head. At point blank. On camera. Clear as day. In a town where some of our board members live. If you still don't understand this issue that is plaguing our nation...I can't help you. If saying black lives matter makes you uncomfortable, you're part of the problem. 

[Fudge_Brownie]

You managed to work in a TopGun reference in a serious way? This debate's going places

In my teens, I heard cops personally talk about how they don't get paid a lot considering the difficulty and danger of their job, and still see that same topic come up. Surely they knew the job had an aspect of danger when they took it, and the pay figures I've seen aren't exactly terrible. Add to it the protective equipment, the tech they have available, and any improvements in training (e.g. Swat-type), and I assume their patrol cars are safer than ever. I just think the whole "its for the officer's safety" thing is getting a bit over-hyped/over-used. I think Alain's article above about Wood captures a lot of the personality traits I've seen that seem a bit misguided, though well intended (broadly, us-vs-them and that this is some sort of war against bad people).

----(Anecdotal story below)

I kinda hate personal examples, but I have a minor recent one: I was riding my bicycle in a near-by parking lot being sure to stay under the lit areas. Doing BMX type stuff (poorly). One officer had scoped me out awkwardly (I don't get why he wouldn't just come over and chat), but left. 20 minutes later, he and another car return and basically corner me with their cars like I'm going to run on them while I stayed in the same place looking directly at the closer car waiting to say Hi. Neither officer was unprofessional, but they weren't exactly officer friendly either. The one who stood behind me (again, as if I was going to run or something - proper tactic, but really?) kept his serious face and ignored my "Hi, how ya doin?" and just kept his 1000 yard stare. After a really brief explanation, he asked for my name and address, wrote it in a notebook, and then didn't really say anything that implied I could or couldn't do what I was. So I said "have a nice night" as nicely as I could and went back to it. They stayed watching me for the next 20 minutes until I left. I'm a resident in that neighborhood, riding a decent bike that I look like I'd own, in a lit parking lot, and one officer had observed what I was doing for ~5-10 minutes. I'd like to think I know how to be a decent contact for an officer. Yet I felt like I was treated as if I might be up to something bad. It was harmless, but felt a bit heavy-handed.

I'm sure many have stories like this, and several probably have much worse. But I think it's a good, simple example of overdoing it. I think I fit the profile of the kind of person you'd want and expect in a good neighborhood, with a harmless summer night hobby, and that requires a rather unfriendly chat?

[Timbo Slice]

You managed to work in a TopGun reference in a serious way? This debate's going places

[Burn-E]

I don't know Alden, it's always the skinny, pasty, white guys with anger issues who turn out to be meth dealers.

 

[caanglin]

I kinda hate personal examples, but I have a minor recent one:

I got pulled over a few ago weeks for allegedly doing 50+ in a 35. Cop was a lying douche bag right off the bat. 
Comes up to the wrong window.
In douche tone "What are you doing on that side?!"
Me "It's imported." 
Says he got me doing 50+ in a 35. 
I say "How?" 
Him "I clocked you at 53."
Me "No you didn't. My radar detector didn't go off."
Him "How do you know it works." 
This goes on for a while until a Audi or Porsche SUV drives by and makes my radar detector go off.
Me "See it works." Him "Get out of the car!" Starts hounding me for info. Me "What does that have to do with speeding."
Goes to his car calls for another car. It shows up. He's a douche as well.
Finally a 3rd car shows up. Unmarked car guy in a Polo shirt. The cops showed him respect. 
He walks over to me. Ask me whats going on. I tell him the first cop is lying. He goes to the cop car does something the radar gun (do they even store info). Walks over to the original cop tells him off. 
Then just tells me to leave. 

The moral of the story. I was late for lunch with my sister. 
And if I were black... I would be dead. 

Sad thing is not the first time something similar has happened. 

Edited July 30, 2015 by fivex84

[flyfishing3]

one day my low tire pressure light came.  I pulled over to examine.

a state police office pulled behind me quickly asking if everything was alright.

i said yes, he got back in his car, and we both went on our way.

 

true story.

[Fudge_Brownie]

Upper middle-class middle-age white dude on the side of the highway doesn't get extra scrutiny, uses it as part of his argument that there isn't a problem. News at 11. This is why I don't really like anecdotal examples anyway - because your situation isn't apples to apples. I wouldn't expect things to be any different myself. The JDM galant though, that might be the same experience.

Is your one neutral/positive experience supposed to mean anything? Like your one experience evens the score? There's good cops out there, I'm sure there are. I've encountered them myself. I don't think anyone here is claiming they're all bad, or all useless, etc. You're one of the few that I think is on the other side of the argument - I'd really like to hear your opinion on some of the other stuff here.

 

[caanglin]

Leaving gas station with dead battery in the Porsche car dies at red light. Cop two cars behind pulls around and helps jump start it. Took all of 3 minutes.