Religulous

[Burn-E]

I'm not sure I follow why you think all 3 are impossible.  Let me offer you a structure Erik. Consider it a philosophical explanation of life, the universe and everything.

God is the creator.  He is capable of creating life, planets, solar systems.  He organizes it all based on governing principles, consider the idea that there are universal laws (laws of physics and chemistry, thermodynamics for example but not yet close to a full comprehension of how matter is governed by these principles) that God uses. God can create life, He can restore life and He can extinguish it.  Most of what we would declare as miracles is largely a finer application of the principles we do not yet fully understand.  Some of that power is accessed through faith and prayer. God created humans as more than just something molded from clay but as His children. We are His children.  Bear that in mind for the last element of love.

God is all knowing.  Consider that His view of time differs from ours as He can see the past, present and future all at one time and see how our actions will shape our lives.  Perhaps a useful metaphor for explaining it is by using the experience of the tesseract as described in Christopher Nolan's movie Interstellar. Except God isn't peeping through slivers of time but sees it all as one streaming constant that can be examined at any point. Because He created us God knows us perfectly.  His choice for when each child is placed on this Earth or other planets (recall I said there are many worlds like ours) is based on many factors we do not truly understand.  But consider that perhaps that poor African child got the better deal in the end.  If this life on Earth is but a sliver of our existence, that we lived before and we will live after, then what we experience on Earth is important but not all defining.

God is love.  Now how is that possible if evil exists?  Evil must exist to place humans in situations that force them to make moral decisions as they progress in life.  God is not the author of evil.  The adversary - some call him Satan, or Lucifer as Mick Jagger declared - was one of us - God's children - and led many with him when he rebelled against God's plan before the Earth was created. Lucifer's purpose is make all miserable, to cause all to fail in our efforts to reach our full potential. Damnation is really just a failure to achieve our potential due to a failure to rely on the help that is offered through Jesus.  Our whole purpose for being here is to learn how to live with a body and develop characteristics similar to God.  Our objective is to become like Him in how we live that we might then be capable of living in His presence when we die.  Sin doesn't damn us because God wants to punish us.  Instead it damns us if not repented because it means we are impure and would feel repelled from living in His presence. As Mormons we say each person will inherit the degree of glory - or access to God - to the extent that we are able to based on how we lead our lives and how we place trust in the Savior provided.  And those with imperfect bodies (mentally disabled) or who die as infants will gain direct access because there is none or limited accountability for them.

Now that's the framework.  Does God intervene in the lives of His children?  Sometimes.  But not always.  Do you pull your child back from walking into traffic?  Absolutely.  But do you hold your child up so they don't have to walk?  No, you will allow him or her to stumble, even fall and scrape her knee because she needs to learn how to walk.  Will you do her homework for her and take her tests?  Will you manage her relationships for her? Will you tell her what she has to eat - initially yes in hopes that you'll help develop good habits but ultimately that will be outside your control when she leaves home.  You will protect her from the bully on the playground when you're around but you will also teach her how to handle herself, how to protect herself, how to see when that bully is someone who just needs a friend and how to win people over with kindness when possible.  She needs to traverse those paths on her own ultimately because she cannot become an independent, capable adult unless she is allowed to make mistakes and figure things out.  You'll hope that she'll lean on you and ask many questions but you cannot do it all for her if you want her to be a fully functioning, strong willed, caring adult.  And you will hope that she passes on what she learns to her children in whom you will find great joy as you see your own creation achieving success and making her way in the world. Hence the structure in which God operates with His children.  Our moral choices impact each other and we create happiness and joy as well as misery and suffering for each other.  That structure is necessary for us to develop and find our way in becoming like God. For those who live a life of simple ignorance and to whom no insight is granted God will not withhold His glory and they will yet have a chance to learn and develop at a faster pace in the life that comes. Again, the structures of justice and merit that we think we understand for our position in life and the time in which we were born is more than imperfect and overly biased by our own understanding and sense of self importance.

[Burn-E]

2 hours ago, ErikS said:

Why are you a Mormon Alain?  Is it because your parents were Mormon.  If you were born into a Catholic, Hindu, or Jewish family do you think you would have still found the Mormon faith?

I was born into the covenant as we say.  My family have been members for generations.  But I grew up outside of the Western US Mormon enclaves because my parents wanted us to develop independent of our faith.  They wanted us to learn to be critically minded and to reason with our hearts and our minds.  I had doubts I had to resolve as a teenager into my early 20's.  I flirted with and studied deeply a number of other religions (Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, mainstream Christianity, and even atheism through western modern philosophies).  I only went to serve a mission for the Church once I had answered the question for myself: what is truth and where can it be found. I had my own moment of conversion that clarified what I believe and that has evolved over the years.  I'm a fairly open minded member of my faith because I believe that elements of truth can be found in many places.  I believe the message for my Church has the main truths and power and authority necessary to better understand our responsibilities in this life and the life to come and how to achieve them.

And yes, I do believe that if I were born to another faith I would have continued to search until I found the answers the LDS Church offers. I was a seeker as a teenager with many questions.  I still pursue answers to questions that surface.  But I feel comfortable that this framework offers the most complete answers to those questions. That does not mean I always agree with the direction the leaders of my faith take but since I do not believe in infallibility and nor do we teach it, their mistakes do not shake my faith.

[Burn-E]

2 hours ago, ErikS said:

Do you think your faith is a business?

No, not in a commercial sense.  Does the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints exist?  Certainly but that is because a legal entity is necessary to manage and dispose of physical and intellectual property.  The extended resources used by the Church are used to benefit the members and those in the world communities around us to further our central mission of sharing the good word and making lives better.  You have to ask who is benefiting and when you're dealing with a lay church - all volunteers - who sacrifice extensive time and resources to support the poor and needy and every individual who walks through the door, it's not the leaders.  

I cannot count the number of hours that I've dedicated to working late in the night and every other odd hour helping out some poor drug addict who needs help finding new housing.  Helping a father who is a convicted felon get access to training as a truck driver, schooling the members of our congregation collectively paid for, and then consulting with him as he prepared for interviews so he can support his family.  Helping a middle aged mentally disabled woman whose hoarding tendencies have put her in danger of getting kicked out of her apartment (after having moved her from apartment to apartment over the previous 7 years) - we finally made a break through and her landlord now sees her as a value tenant and she's found a new spring in her step.  And I'm just one of many who do all of this not for pay but because we believe it's our calling and duty to do so.

Does the Prophet and do the other General Authorities receive a stipend to cover their living and travel costs when they're called to dedicate their lives to the service? Yes, but almost every one of those leaders was making more money in their corporate positions and had greater visibility in the world before being tapped for that service.

I'll give you a few examples:

Peter Meurs - Board Member of Fortescue Metals

Dallin Oaks - likely would have become a US Supreme Court Justice

Robert D Hales - was President of Gillette and Chesebrough Pond's

Kim Clark - was Dean of Harvard Business School

Russell Nelson - was a leading cardiothoracic surgeon

Richard Scott - one of the humblest men I've ever met was a leading nuclear engineer who designed many of the early nuclear reactors

The list goes on. These leaders are certainly not in it for the money.

[ErikS]

8 minutes ago, Burn-E said:

The list goes on. These leaders are certainly not in it for the money.

So why does your church run for profit businesses like DMC and AgReserves?  What good does 40 billion in fancy temples and real estate around the globe do for the poor starving child in Africa?

Not very Jesus like.  The Jesus I've read about would tell you to sell it all and give it to the poor.

 

[Burn-E]

Have you ever stopped and looked at what the Church is doing with the output of those businesses?  A large portion of that meat and produce is given away to those in need.  And Erik, unless you actually spend time examining how those businesses function you won't understand how they're accomplishing the same mission I described above.  Again, you have to ask who is benefiting.

My parents spent 3 years working in Ghana.  Trust me, I know exactly how our efforts are benefiting the poor in Africa.  Real estate has a value as becoming a center for developing a church community of strength when a building is placed that supports that function.  Our church buildings where weekly services are held are highly functional and far from ornate.  The temples serve a specific purpose for salvation and are seen as a house of God, a meeting place between earth and heaven.  Most of the temples built these days are smaller to shorten the distance any member has to travel in order to have regular access to them.  Studies show that those who regularly attend temples are better parents, better husbands and wives, better contributors to the society around them.  The world benefits in many ways beyond just the spiritual impact.

[ErikS]

DMC is media, insurance, and hospitality.

That's right.  Y'all own a huge insurance company that is for profit.  Religion.  Insurance.  For-Profit.

Give me a break.

[Kevin.]

3 minutes ago, Burn-E said:

Have you ever stopped and looked at what the Church is doing with the output of those businesses?  A large portion of that meat and produce is given away to those in need.  And Erik, unless you actually spend time examining how those businesses function you won't understand how they're accomplishing the same mission I described above.  Again, you have to ask who is benefiting.

 

seems like those in power in the church are benefiting, Alain. Having a corporation would make it a business, no? And that would invalidate the whole tax-free status, no? Wonder what those top dogs are putting into their pockets....

[Burn-E]

Kevin, it might help to stop and consider before jumping to conclusions. Those in power would be the leaders of the Church.  None of them are realizing any significant return from these businesses even though they have oversight for them.

Erik, yes, there's an insurance company.  Which provides coverage to the employees and many thousands of volunteers serving in service missions across the world. We live in a world filled with risk and costs attached to those risks the Church takes the effort to protect its members.

[ErikS]

I hope you understand that I am not happy with any of the judeo-christian religions Alain, or most religion in general.  When you keep presenting yours it leaves it for scrutiny, I am not trying to attack your faith just presenting questions that seem reasonable. I respect your faith and admire your convictions.

If I had it my way I'd be re-incarnated as a buddhist in Bhutan in the next life sipping tea and staring at the mountains.

I wish I had a life that simple.

[Burn-E]

Sounds like a pleasant return Erik though I'll admit I think staring at the mountains probably reaches a point of overkill. Probably why Edmund Hillary turned his attention to building schools.  No offense taken.  I am happy to offer answers.

[flyfishing3]

Go.

[Burn-E]

You're such a troll Mike

[Fudge_Brownie]

22 minutes ago, flyfishing3 said:

Go.

Aren't you catholic? If so, your kids got the same white wash.

 

 

[Burn-E]

You need too invite Justin in here if you want someone to discuss the JW's

[flyfishing3]

4 minutes ago, Fudge_Brownie said:

Aren't you catholic? If so, your kids got the same white wash.

 

 

Yes, but we've never beat that into them.  

9 minutes ago, Burn-E said:

You're such a troll Mike

:)