Gun Control Debate

[Che'_Moderator]

I want to start this out as an open informed dialog about what has been forced to the front page of every major news outlet. Gun control in America has been a hot button issue for decades. Every time an event makes the front page people rush to pass laws or form opinions on what needs to be done. Just as I do not believe there is any simple one answer, I do not believe any one person can be non-bias. For that reason I am asking you to think for yourself from an analytical perspective and hopefully learn something.

As many of you know, I am pro-firearms in many ways. That said, if there was a magic button that we could push that would make all firearms go away for ever I would vote to push it. Not a popular opinion with many, but I am not so blind that I cannot understand that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Knowing there is no magic button, what is the answer? I am not going to pretend there is one, but the closest we will ever get in my opinion is understanding. Understanding what makes violent people carry out violent acts. Understanding why the pro-firearms people think the way they do. Understanding why the firm anti-firearm groups feel the way they do.

Having already admitted that I am incapable of total non-bias, I will do my best to highlight well established facts or statistics in red and my straight opinion in blue. So the begin, how would I summarize my stance. First off, I am not an NRA member. I never have been because a good deal of the time I do not agree with how they conduct themselves. The NRA is a very old organization, that I feel a lot of people view as the archetype for firearm owners. From a socioeconomic standpoint, I do not feel like I fit the traditional mold of the NRA. Even if I am an outlier, does the NRA represent the average firearm owner? Statistically they do not. There are an estimates 5-7 million active NRA members. With an estimated 120 million plus firearm owners in the US, you quickly see the NRA is a very small sample. Having said all that, I do think the NRA is a good organization that is constantly trying to improve and adapt to a constantly changing landscape.

On the other side, its harder to assign a single face of voice. There are lots of anti-firearms groups out there. Much like the pro-firearm group their opinions and demands span a large spectrum. Everything from tighter background checks to a total ban. I have no idea what percentage want a total ban, but I will assume most do not. The middle ground probably champions something more like the 1994 assault weapons ban. While passed with good intent, the 1994 AWB was executed poorly at best. A lot of people believe that under the 1994 AWB assault weapons were ban for sale. This is not true for two reasons. First, any weapons with a serial number before 1994 fell under a grandfather clause. Second, AR15s (insert any AW style rifle here) was still fully legal to manufacture and sell as long as it only had 2 of the 5 qualifiers. EX. you could have a AR15 built new as long as you gave up a bayonet mount and say a flash suppressor. Would the ban have actually been effective had they done a total ban on certain weapons? No one can answer that.

 

Now I want to address two points that always seem to be lost in all the noise.

 

1. School shootings are becoming more common. (Sorry pro-firearm people)
2. Violent gun crime is at a 50 year low according to DOJ and FBI. (Sorry anti-firearm people)

 

To the first the data is a scatter plot with low confidence. To further complicate it you have the data salted with suicides and gang related violence. Overall though, I feel it can be common ground between both groups. School shootings are on the rise.

Now the second point. This one is more established and even with suicides gun deaths are declining. Could it decline faster? Maybe, and that would be great. What seems to be lost though, is that it is declining not rising. This should be another point both groups can agree on.

Along the same lines is the often echoed statement that the US has one of the highest gun homicide rates in the world. This is 100% true. What is often lost though, is we are right on par with the rest of the world on homicide rates. The take away… We are not really any more violent of a society than the rest of the world. We just have guns available to us.

So could be do more to prevent gun crime? Of course we can. Will it have any measurable effect? Personally I do not think so, but that does not mean we should not try. As one more aside I will add this. Someone will inevitably ask why I own firearms. Aside from the ones I own for work, I own them for one of two reasons. My family has a farm and there are animals that are dangerous to the horses out there. Second, I enjoy them. Some of my best memories in life are shooting with my father or grandfathers. I did it as a boy, and most recently over the winter holiday. Personally I feel blesses to be able to share that memory with three generations.

 

As always chime in. Keep it civil and factual, but lets have a talk. We all know nothing will be solved here, but hopefully we can achieve some understanding.

[flyfishing3]

TLDR

 

gun control is not shooting straight.

Said it before,  we can't do anything about the guns.  We need to regulate the hell out of the ammo.

 

you can have a long federal crime record and go into Walmart and buy a shopping cart of ammo.

 

No guns in school, I don't care about a persons background

no guns in movie theaters, bars

 

you need training, a long practice period and 2 tests to get a drivers license(at least in PA).  being 18 doesn't/shouldn't  mean you can just go buy a murder weapon.

 

 

[gmsgltr]

 

On 3/8/2018 at 9:50 AM, Che'_Moderator said:

 

As always chime in. Keep it civil and factual, but lets have a talk. We all know nothing will be solved here, but hopefully we can achieve some understanding.

Here's a long rambler:

Chuck, I like your post. I'll play... my comments are to the subject, not directly to you... but I do like what I highlighted in bold above^

First, my heart hurts for those that have lost lives due to gun violence most recently. I can't imagine the pain. I don't have an answer. I have opinions on the current rules/state of things that could, in my opinion help prevent future mass shootings.

For the record, I am not a NRA member and have absolutely zero interest. I own a few guns. I know nothing about politics. I am not, and my immediate family is not, in law enforcement. I am pro-firearms to an extent... I do not believe people should be able to possess automatic weapons. Leave them to law enforcement and our military. Yes I know, its not that easy. Yes I know semi-automatic guns kill too. How does the government get them back? How does the government stop those from modifying their weapons, Printing weapons, buying them black market... I don't know. It's my opinion/ a comment, so back off!

I think we could do a better job when it comes to background checks, and grace periods. If you want a gun, prepare to be investigated first. Yes, that is easy for me to say being a white male, clean record, able to afford them, blah blah. Prove that you are capable of properly owning a weapon. I know, this takes time. It costs money. It is invasive. Too bad.    

I do not like the idea of arming educators. I can't remember if I read it here or not but most teachers already have too much on their plate, and nearly every teacher I've ever had, with the exception of my 12th grade history teacher/former cop that used to scare the shit out of us, aren't capable of properly wielding/protecting a weapon in their possession 100% of the time. Run-on sentence but fuck it. My wife is a teacher, I am biased - her lack of pay, her work load, her responsibilities - they just can't have a gun too. She's not a fan of me going to the range - it's her opinion though, and she is easy going and lets me do my thing. I don't get a guilt trip and so I don't wave the guns or talk about it too much around her. I would like her to know how to use my pistols properly but I can't force her. She can't force me to do fucking yoga so we are even. Her school is always locked. You need clearances just to visit her classroom during the school day. I don't know how the Florida shooter got into that school but the school should have been locked. I understand folks don't want metal/screening at all entry ways - I haven't made my mind up on that yet but I know it will be costly. Without metal detectors someone coming into the school in the morning like a teacher or student could still have a gun on them... but we can still lock the doors at all other times.

Like Chuck, I have fond memories of my Grandfather trying to teach me hunting techniques/rifles etc. When I was born he bought me the ruger 22 lr I have today. It was his intention to do competitions etc. with me when I was young and unfortunately he passed too soon, and my parents weren't into it and don't like guns so that never really got traction. Long story short, my uncle (grandfathers brother) (gun collector - pressed his own bullets - has 50+ guns - was a little bit of a 'prepper') tried teaching me or bonding over hunting/guns and I was then a teen brat and resisted. Only a few years ago did I realize that he just wanted to fulfill something my grandfather always wanted to do with me. I was too late again. I have taken a slow and reserved interest in it over the last few years as something I just never got to do or fully learn/respect.

I have my handguns essentially because they have been passed down to me. I enjoy the sport of target shooting. I like the idea of having a gun in my home if I needed to defend myself or my family. I would push the same button Chuck would push if it were possible... 

 

On 3/8/2018 at 12:56 PM, flyfishing3 said:

 

Said it before,  we can't do anything about the guns.  We need to regulate the hell out of the ammo.

 

you can have a long federal crime record and go into Walmart and buy a shopping cart of ammo.

 

This is a good point... but, you still can get your buddies to buy their limit too and give it to you, you can steal the ammo, you can make it yourself. You can drive from one wal-mart to the next. You can buy all the rounds you want over an extended period of time. Most of these shooters have been motivated... not sure this would have stopped them. But, honestly, I can make that argument to my comments above too...

Another thought was legal purchasing age... across the states: 21 (This is for purchasing only)

You aren't able to buy beer till 21. You aren't able to buy some green stuff till 21... 

 

[Che'_Moderator]

 

 

Fun printable target for you. I use those for speed drills at 50m with a rifle and 10m pistol. 

[flyfishing3]

every time I argue this with chuck he has the same response.

 

Make a bullet 1000.00.

 

chucks response.  I'll just pack my own.  I have to bet the % that actually pack their own is .0001% in the real world.

 

how about all you sport shooters buy your rounds at the range and then its controlled better.

 

[gmsgltr]

27 minutes ago, flyfishing3 said:

every time I argue this with chuck he has the same response.

 

Make a bullet 1000.00.

 

chucks response.  I'll just pack my own.  I have to bet the % that actually pack their own is .0001% in the real world.

 

how about all you sport shooters buy your rounds at the range and then its controlled better.

 

I made that blue for ya Mikey^  

Yeah - the number is low for those that 'pack their own' but I bet its higher than you think. I also know that if things were limited, some would then learn how to, and buy the equipment to do it themselves... 

 

Buying your rounds at the range - not a bad idea. Then they check your bag when you leave to ensure you aren't leaving with any? Chuck is on a different level if he's using that target he posted haha 

 

 

[Che'_Moderator]

38.XX seconds. Bolt action - prone

I used to handload pistol ammo but its cheap enough again that I do not bother. All my centerfire rifle I hand load though. Anyone who shoots long-range probably handloads. As for others Mike it is a lot more common than you think. For 500 dollars you can buy a progressive press that will do 400-600rds per hour all day long. 

[gmsgltr]

Um. 

I wont even ask.

Wont you dont know... wait... IT WILL HURT ME!

[flyfishing3]

1 hour ago, gmsgltr said:

Um. 

I wont even ask.

Wont you dont know... wait... IT WILL HURT ME!

look outside and wave, chuck is out there.

[gmsgltr]

Going to the indoor range tomorrow after work - I'll print Chuck's shared target... can't guarantee anything haha

[Rod'sT-5]

I live in Fl. That all that's been in the news lately.

I have belonged to the NRA in the past, may sign up again. I own an AR-15, and 2 hand guns. Others were stolen when broken into 2 yrs ago. I have a concealed carry permit, and I do carry.

I have no problem with raising the age limit, and raising the waiting time. But that will not make any difference in school shootings. The kid in south Fl had the gun long before hand. It was even locked up in a gun safe.

My son is a teacher. He has a carry permit, and owns  guns like mine. I would have no problem with him carrying at school. Everyone seems to think they will make all teachers carry. That's wrong. Only a select few that want to, and are qualified to. Law enforcement will never be there when the shooter is active, they will be the first to tell you that.

It is my responsibility to protect my family and myself.

The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun, is with a good guy with a gun.

[Che'_Moderator]

It passed. Actually debating if we will offer the 130 hour course. Not liability reasons, more ethical. Firearms in school I am fine with, but teachers carrying is beyond moronic. Gonna be a lot of pistols left on the backs of toilets and towel dispensers. 

[ErikS]

For the common person, who is not really into guns, their motivation to own one is usually home protection/personal defense.  I need to protect family/property.

I am fine with someone like Chuck owning an arsenal, because that's what he does, but for public health people who think they need one and getting one to be "safer", all data shows it only increases their risk of being shot by owning one.

What say you Charles? Should there be a gun in every home, car, carry, and purse?

[Che'_Moderator]

3 hours ago, ErikS said:

What say you Charles? Should there be a gun in every home, car, carry, and purse?

 

I don't like to but I can sign off on civilian permits and get asked this all the time. Short answer, no. If you do not feel comfortable around firearms, you should not have one for protection. Carrying is a huge liability. Personally I carry insurance both through work and personal, but its still a risk. I know people that carry 24/7. Outside work I very seldom carry. I might have something in car, but seldom on person.