Kashif Posted May 14, 2005 Report Share Posted May 14, 2005 (edited) In another thread "Owned" stated that we should discuss health care in the Politican Discussion board. Ok lets discuss health care policy between the two nations. I'll start the discussion by stating that the US spends 13.6 % GDP on Health Care expenses and Canada spends 9.5 % GDP on health care expenses (Data from www.OECD.org) In the US not every citizen has access to health insurance, whereas in Canada every citizen and landed immigrant has access to health insurance. The US spends more but gets less. Lets discuss this issue first. Edited May 14, 2005 by Kashif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsat Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 I would love to see the US health care system move to one more like Canada.Health care is a huge expense for private companies in the US. I personally do not understand why it is your employers responsibility to take care of your health.There are alot of small business that do not expand or may not even start because they cannot afford the expense of covering health insurance for their workers.Besides, everyone benefits from everyone knowing they can go to a hospital or a clinic if they need to. Imagine somebody that has a serious illness that is contagious. Image that they are poor and have no insurance. Without universal healthcare that person may spread that illness to others causing a much greater economical loss and possibly human loss. With universal health care that person could be treated or isolated much sooner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Che'_Moderator Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 I already have a bad feeling about this. Ok lets start out with the 13% of GDP number. I went to the site looked up the sources and they seem non-bias. But they also include private health sectors. IE someones breast implants are "inflating" that number. So are all other elective procedures. Ok now lets look at: "Besides, everyone benefits from everyone knowing they can go to a hospital or a clinic if they need to"Every city has a clinic. Every person in the US does get basic, albeit very basic, health care. Before someone yells BS, go run over a homeless person. When the ambulance comes see if they take him. If so thats 5k in health care the county, you, just provided. If the government can do more with the same amount of tax money they collect now, rock on! But why should higher taxes be passed onto everyone to support the few? I am for a free system where dumb people are not cared for. IE, you go to the hospital with a cough and find out you have lung cancer. Cool, you get treatment. You continue to smoke after you are diagnosed, you die and loose coverage. Other side of the coin. I have the latest greatest illness. 1000 homeless also have said latest greatest illness. Under our system they all get treated at a city clinic, again maybe slow but they will be taken care of.... eventually. In the mean time I go pay my Doc 2k, get a script, and my life goes on. I do not mean to be callous but if I have a job and my time is limited, why should I be expected to wait as long as someone who has nothing to do all day? Or better yet, how can I? My jobs not gonna be happy if I take off days of works to wait for health care.Yes our system could be better, but free health care is not the answer. Look at SS if you think it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyROTech Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 nothing is free! and yes we have a system, but people with nothing wrong seem to always be in doctors office Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Stig Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 Charles, if what you're describing is an accurate reflection of the US system, then it is tantamount to universal healthcare. No one is denied publicly funded (in addition to private funded) essential treatment. This is the same as in Canada, except the scope of coverage is different, as is the absence of a private system (although this is rapidly changing, despite it being unconstitutional).Andrew, the thing is that if it doesn't come out of one pocket, it will come out of another. If the employers don't provide healthcare coverage to their employees, and it is instead left up to the state to provide that, then taxes will go up accordingly. In Canada, basic healthcare services are public, but private party insurance is also provided by some employers to cover additional costs such as dental work, medications, allied health practitioner vists, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Stig Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 Also, Charles raises a very thought-provoking point about a person's responsibility for their own health.When you smoke, your odds of getting a smoking related illness are proportional to the duration and intensity of exposure. And when one of these pops up, be it emphysema, cancer, or something else, you can bet there's a significant dollar value associated with treatment, if it is in fact treatable. Yet smokers pay the same level of taxes as someone who doesn't smoke, despite being a much greater burden on the healthcare system due to an addiction that is (to some degree) perpetuated by their own volition. I always found that interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theunderlord Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 look, the bottom line is, the Canadian Health care system encourages "Free Riding" which is puts unneeded stress on the system itself. without fixing that problem, the canadian health care system will stay just that; Canadian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kashif Posted May 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 (edited) look, the bottom line is, the Canadian Health care system encourages "Free Riding" which is puts unneeded stress on the system itself. without fixing that problem, the canadian health care system will stay just that; Canadian.←I think you are over emphasizing "Free Riding". What is your proof that this is endemic and a problem in Canada? IE Do you have governmental or non-profit organizational statistics showing this to be true or is this just anecdotal examples that are constantly stated with no proof behind them. Edited May 16, 2005 by Kashif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theunderlord Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 I think you are over emphasizing "Free Riding". What is your proof that this is endemic and a problem in Canada? IE Do you have governmental or non-profit organizational statistics showing this to be true or is this just anecdotal examples that are constantly stated with no proof behind them.←no.. i'm not over emphasising it at all. perception is the rule... not 1/2 , not 3/4 it's the rule. I don't need to argue this with you... the system is just as flawed as the USA's is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kashif Posted May 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 (edited) Is this preception that you have seen yourself, or is it what is said in this country?I will admit that Canada's system of Health Care is not the Second Coming, but it is a model worth studying and not brushed aside as some Canadian notion.Having lived in Canada and used and volunteered in the Health care system, I can say that this is not my preception. If you go to the ER and say I have a runny nose, help me. You are usually told to go to a clinic or your family doctor, if you insist on staying in the ER you are then told to wait a long time.Besides if this abuse of Health Canada is so rampant, why is it that Canada spends less on Health Care (only 9.5% for everyone) whereas the U.S. spends more (13.6% for a protion of the populace). Edited May 16, 2005 by Kashif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Che'_Moderator Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 Is this preception that you have seen yourself, or is it what is said in this country?I will admit that Canada's system of Health Care is not the Second Coming, but it is a model worth studying and not brushed aside as some Canadian notion.Having lived in Canada and used and volunteered in the Health care system, I can say that this is not my preception. If you go to the ER and say I have a runny nose, help me. You are usually told to go to a clinic or your family doctor, if you insist on staying in the ER you are then told to wait a long time.Besides if this abuse of Health Canada is so rampant, why is it that Canada spends less on Health Care (only 9.5% for everyone) whereas the U.S. spends more (13.6% for a protion of the populace).←Because your 13% included private sector. Of course thats more. Thats like comparing mess hall food to 5 star dinning. When your running the entire system you can trim whatever you want. Ready for this one? This blows nanuck minds. WE LIKE TO SUE. Medical malpractice drives cost through the roof. Looks up insurance costs in CA vs US. Also look up FDA regs. We work the FDA everyday. We spend millions on anything internal before its approved. Some times its good sometimes its bad. Example of good is easy, less crap products. Example of bad, we just spent 500k getting a decon agent certified as safe as a hard surface sterilant. The same decon agent is approved for internal use. Personally to me it seems like if its on the GRASS list and ok to use on your organs it should be safe for your kitchen counter. But thats red tape. Same agent is now use on most poultry in the US. You have good points but go look up the studies and how they were done. They did not take into account private sector or insurance. Maybe some do, but the ones you referenced did not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wills Posted May 17, 2005 Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 Canada's taxes are somewhat higher, which is why they provide health care. One way or another you are going to pay. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Stig Posted May 17, 2005 Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 WE LIKE TO SUE. Medical malpractice drives cost through the roof. Looks up insurance costs in CA vs US. ←This is true. Not being a legal expert, and maybe someone else can clarify this, but I believe there is either a guideline or a statute up here that limits the amount one can get for a personal injury suit against a doctor. It's meant to prevent those "I'm suing for $50 million because the doctor forgot to take out a stitch" kind of lawsuits. Hence, there aren't the huge money cases up here that there are south of the border. You guys sure are litigation happy~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plan_B Posted May 17, 2005 Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 My Dr. didn't close up my lipo holes and I went home bleeding, I almost sued, but they made it right :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Che'_Moderator Posted May 17, 2005 Report Share Posted May 17, 2005 My Dr. didn't close up my lipo holes and I went home bleeding, I almost sued, but they made it right ←That wasnt an accident. See earlier post "dead men tell no tales" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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