Katrina, Lets Debate

[PyROTech]

Ok, this is a double thread. First is that Canada has tried with all resources available to aid the hurricane victims with our outdated sea kind helicopters “the crash a lot” but still with some good stuff, special aircraft, water rescue “in fact we offered to send down some rescue teams before the Americans would send support (remember the news says this so it doesn’t mean that the US gov didn’t send support before media saw this) . But on the second part, what do you think on the news that the US government messed up with the whole thing?

[EMDII]

- The state and local governments hosed this from the git-go. Ignored warnings, and then acted too late.

- FEMA is a resource management and coordination agency. Where's it going to go BEFORE the hurricane comes to town?

- where you going to send rescue eams when there are no airfields inside the disaster area, no fuel tosupport them, no electricity, and no water for life support?

- You can't turn anything bigger than a dime in the space of a dime. Even the CDN government can't. Suppyling hundreds of thousands of evacuees is not done w/ the snap of a finger.

The mediatainment create news and controversy. That's how the sell advertisisng. Ergo: criticims of 'big government' is an easy no-brainer for them. Essentially, NO got hit by energies far in excess of ANY nuclear weapon in inventories of the US or the Russians. THAT cannot be overcome instantaneously. PERIOD>

- Rule #1: when the governemnt says evacuate, and sends busses, get your @$$ in gear and move out.

- Rule #2: Government cannot protect you 100% of the time

- Rule #3: Park your city below sea level, and natural selection will clear the gene pool.

- Rule #4: mother nature is a oh yeah!.

[Che'_Moderator]

The biggest mistake I saw was lack of force protection. You cannot attempt rescues in a hot zone with little to no force protection. The second problem I saw is still going on. They have the zone so secure its taking supplies to 4-5 hours to clear the 50 mile check point. At this point who cares. Let everyone through and weed them out on scene. Bottom line is no amount of local preperation failiur can be fixed with gorernment intervention.

[Zappo]

- Rule #3: Park your city below sea level, and natural selection will clear the gene pool.

←

The city is 8 feet below sea level, and right next to the sea. It has been sinking for a long time. It is surprising that something like this hasn't happened before, but they have been lucky and most storms pass to the east.

Anyone who stayed took their chances. They were warned and chose not to leave. This isn't like an earthquake where you have no warning at all. Government warned them, they stayed. The government can't protect you from being an idiot, even though it seems to try.

[zimmy77]

Anyone who stayed took their chances.  They were warned and chose not to leave.  This isn't like an earthquake where you have no warning at all.  Government warned them, they stayed.  The government can't protect you from being an idiot, even though it seems to try.

←

Exactly. capable people need to start caring for themselves and stop relying on others to do it for them.

the federal government can only protect you as long as the state government calls on them. they wont step in without a state of emergency declaration from the governor. who, by the way, said she needed an extra 24hrs to decide what she should do, thus delaying support efforts further. certain states rights are given up when declaring a state of emergency and allowing the federal government to take over the situation.... unfortunately, my knowledge base ends here, and I'm not sure exactly what is given up. :unsure:

[ToxicLemonade]

the government is set up to protect us from ONE ANOTHER, it is not set up to protect ourselves from ourselves (although sometimes it attempts to). It makes no sense that these people had warning well in advange to get the heck out of dodge, but didnt. There were buses supplied by the gov't for those that couldnt afford it. It all reverts back to Darwin's theory, survival of the fittest, and those who stayed didnt any excuse for staying there.

[RiddickJordan]

in the words of kanye west "George Bush doesnt like black people"

[prasamin]

FEMA needs to be cut off from the government and redone....fire every beaurocrat (sorry about spelling) involved in FEMA and revamp the whole organization....i would personally like to choke the idiotic president of FEMA who kept saying that they didn't find out about the stranded people until two days after the hurricane....he must be the one millionaire in the country without a tv or radio....

[Che'_Moderator]

FEMA needs to be cut off from the government and redone....fire every beaurocrat (sorry about spelling) involved in FEMA and revamp the whole organization....i would personally like to choke the idiotic president of FEMA who kept saying that they didn't find out about the stranded people until two days after the hurricane....he must be the one millionaire in the country without a tv or radio....

←

So you believe the media? Go read a few GAO reports before you form an opinion

[prasamin]

well, i believe pictures when I see them....the media was showing people stranded on rooftops and dead bodies, and in a small side PIP box they were showing the FEMA director shocked because he had no idea there was a flood and all of N.O. was under water...

i formed an opinion based on what I saw....unless you actually went there, then you also got info from the media...whether it be t.v., radio, or internet, it is media....

[Che'_Moderator]

well, i believe pictures when I see them....the media was showing people stranded on rooftops and dead bodies, and in a small side PIP box they were showing the FEMA director shocked because he had no idea there was a flood and all of N.O. was under water...

i formed an opinion based on what I saw....unless you actually went there, then you also got info from the media...whether it be t.v., radio, or internet, it is media....

←

well atleast your catching on. I also saw the same kid on CNN crying 1million times. I also heard CNN say in the first 3 days 60% of the PD left. I heard a lot of crap that was not true. I even saw a lot that was not true. FEMA operates on offical channels not from what the media puts out there. Blame the GOV and Mayor if you want to blame some one.

BTW this is 1st hand from one of CNNs favorite people. Its from tuesday, and even it is filled with facts that we now know are wrong. Again not to harp on it, but the problem was not FEMA. FEMA could not do anything without force protection which even as late as thursday was not in place:

From: Gregory S. Henderson MD, PhD <GSHend@maxxxxxxx

Thanks to all of you who have sent your notes of concern and your prayers. I am writing this note on Tuesday at 2PM . I wanted to update all of you as to the situation here. I don't know how much information you are getting but I am certain it is more than we are getting. Be advised that almost everything I am telling you is from direct observation or rumor from reasonable sources. They are allowing limited internet access, so I hope to send this dispatch today. Personally, my family and I are fine. My family is safe in Jackson, MS, and I am now a temporary resident of the Ritz Carleton Hotel in New Orleans. I figured if it was my time to go, I wanted to go in a place with a good wine list. In addition, this hotel is in a very old building on Canal Street that could and did sustain little damage. Many of the other hotels sustained significant loss of windows, and we expect that many of the guests may be evacuated here.

Things were obviously bad yesterday, but they are much worse today. Overnight the water arrived. Now Canal Street (true to its origins) is indeed a canal. The first floor of all downtown buildings is underwater. I have heard that Charity Hospital and Tulane are limited in their ability to care for patients because of water. Ochsner is the only hospital that remains fully functional. However, I spoke with them today and they too are on generator and losing food and water fast. The city now has no clean water, no sewerage system, no electricity, and no real communications. Bodies are still being recovered floating in the floods. We are worried about a cholera epidemic. Even the police are without effective communications. We have a group of armed police here with us at the hotel that are admirably trying to exert some local law enforcement. This is tough because looting is now rampant. Most of it is not malicious looting. These are poor and desperate people with no housing and no medical care and no food or water trying to take care of themselves and their families. Unfortunately, the people are armed and dangerous. We hear gunshots frequently. Most of Canal street is occupied by armed looters who have a low threshold for discharging their weapons. We hear gunshots frequently. The looters are using makeshift boats made of pieces of styrofoam to access. We are still waiting for a significant national guard presence. The health care situation here has dramatically worsened overnight. Many people in the hotel are elderly and small children. There are ID physicians in at this hotel attending an HiV confection. We have commandered the worldfamous French Quarter Bar to turn into an makeshift clinic. There is a team of about 7 doctors and PA and pharmacists. We anticipate that this will be the major medical facility in the central business district and French Quarter.

Our biggest adventure today was raiding the Walgreens on Canal under police escort. The pharmacy was dark and fulll of water. We basically scooped the entire drug sets into gargace bags and removed them. All under police excort. The looters had to be held back at gun point. After a dose of prophylactic Cipro I hope to be fine. In all we are faring well. We have set up a hospital in the the French Qarter bar in the hotel, and will start admitting patients today. Many with be from the hotel, but many with not. We are anticipating to dealing with multiple medical problems, medications and and acute injuries. Infection and perhaps even cholera are anticipated major problems. Food and water shortages are iminent. The biggest question to all of us is where is the national guard. We hear jet fighters and helicopters, but no real armed presence, and hence the rampant looting. There is no Red Cross and no Salvation Army. In a sort of cliché way, this is an edifying experience. Once is rapidly focused away from the transient and material to the bare necessities of life. It has been challenging to me to learn how to be a primary care phyisican.

We are under martial law so return to our homes is impossible. I don't know how long it will be and this is my greatest fear. Despite it all, this is a soul edify experience. The greatest pain is to think about the loss. And how long the rebuild will. And the horror of so many dead people. From the front. I will send more according to your interest. Hopefully their collective prayers will be answered. By the way suture packs, sterile gloves and stethoscopes will be needed as the Ritz turns into a MASH.

Greg Henderson

[prasamin]

well atleast your catching on.  I also saw the same kid on CNN crying 1million times.  I also heard CNN say in the first 3 days 60% of the PD left.  I heard a lot of crap that was not true.  I even saw a lot that was not true.  FEMA operates on offical channels not from what the media puts out there.  Blame the GOV and Mayor if you want to blame some one.

←

well, i blame them also, no worries there, just didn't want to rant on about them too!!

[PyROZen]

- Rule #3: Park your city below sea level, and natural selection will clear the gene pool.

yeah, so lets blame the city for destroying itself. The state applied for emergency help but no one was around to heed the call. Bush on vaction, FEMA guy is a freakin nice guy. Have anyone of you seen the interviews these people have given???? They are all just Bush's good-ol-boys and now we get to see what they're really made of, and it's stuff.

by the way, the fema guy is not a nice guy.... the word filter is.

Edited September 8, 2005 by PyROZen

[StickThatClutch]

Made my $500 donation to the Red Cross today. Hope everyone can help out a bit.

[prasamin]

Made my $500 donation to the Red Cross today. Hope everyone can help out a bit.

←

i matched my tsunami donation (and let's just say that it was more than 2 weeks pay, and I'm in the dental field) (I was in India during the tsunami for those who don't remember)...i also hope people can help, since our government just woke up a couple of days ago.

Charles, to me, FEMA is part of the government, so they should have requested the protection, or done something about the situation....I think the entire gov. including FEMA is ENTIRELY to blame for the situation....i've heard so many of my patients give me good opinions on the matter ie buses to evac the poor before the hurricane, pre-positioned aid, military presence immediately following the hurricane (if we can send them around the world in 24hrs, then we can have them in N.O/Biloxi/Gulfport in under 1 hour)....there is just so much that went wrong here....i'm glad the people are getting the help they need, but it's so sad to hear about dead patients in hospitals and dead nursing home patients....FEMA should have evac'ed the people who couldn't do it themselves....what a sad time for this country, i can't even believe it's happening....FEMA is the FEDERAL EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY....to me, that's part of the government, and they should have had things handled better.

Edited September 9, 2005 by prasamin