Is There A God Or Supreme Being?

[TorqueSteer]

What I have the most difficult time with in evolutionary theory (and I remain open to this) is the change of one species to another, what some people call macro evolution. I still don't understand this and I'm not trying to be facicious (sp?). If humanity evolved from apes, then why are there still apes? If 4 legged amphibians came from snakes, then why are there still snakes?

This is a puzzling question, but keep in mind the periods of time we are dealing with. The first living organism appeared on earth 2,800,000,000 years ago. The earliest "human" existed 5 million years ago and the civilization with records is only a few thousand years old. The periods of time are just mind boggling, think of how long a year is then, then imagine a million of them, then 2,800 times that! Many changes have taken place from then until now, we are just limited in our scope of our lifetime and the liftime of our civilations history.

[Volvokiller]

If you believe in creation by God, then you have to accept the fact that this universe is not a product of

billions of years of evoulutiuon. Therefore, God made what we see today and much of it was "born" with

age. ie. Adam and Eve were not infants. Can God not create something that has "age"? The world we see was brought into existence with a purpose that is beyoud what we as humans can understand even with "faith".

A very nice point. I've never heard of it argued from that angle before. Very interesting.

While the bible may have been compiled and versed many years later into the book we have today, most all of the gospels and epistles were written by Christ's apostles and disciples within 30 years of his crucifixtion, some within 10 years. These letters and testimonies, which eventually became the core of the new testament, were eyewitness accounts of the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, given within the the same generation. My point is there were many non-believer's and those who hated Christianity at that time (not 300 years later) who wanted nothing better than to be able to refute the resurrection but were not able to do it.

I'm not discounting that the New Testament Gospels weren't written by people that knew Christ. I also understand that they were originally written close to his death. However, after hundreds of years, the likelihood of the stories being altered changes greatly, especially when you look at the corresponding rise of power the Church experienced. Why not juice up the stories of a guy who lived three Hundered years ago. Do you think if a concerted effort was put forth by people in power to take Benjamin Franklin and give him god-like divinity because of his many discoveries now, that in the year 2300 it would be easy to refute? How bout in the year 4000? We could turn Franklinism into the next Christianity.

[atbspinner]

I'm not discounting that the New Testament Gospels weren't written by people that knew Christ. I also understand that they were originally written close to his death. However, after hundreds of years, the likelihood of the stories being altered changes greatly, especially when you look at the corresponding rise of power the Church experienced. Why not juice up the stories of a guy who lived three Hundered years ago. Do you think if a concerted effort was put forth by people in power to take Benjamin Franklin and give him god-like divinity because of his many discoveries now, that in the year 2300 it would be easy to refute? How bout in the year 4000? We could turn Franklinism into the next Christianity.

[Volvokiller]

What I have the most difficult time with in evolutionary theory (and I remain open to this) is the change of one species to another, what some people call macro evolution. I still don't understand this and I'm not trying to be facicious (sp?). If humanity evolved from apes, then why are there still apes? If 4 legged amphibians came from snakes, then why are there still snakes? Presumably, the ones with variations that could not adapt to the environment should have died off, ie. not pass their variation through their genes to the next generation. The Darwinian principle says the strongest will survive, the ones who can't adapt dies. That's what I'm puzzled about.

Hey, something I can actually answer! As a Biology student, this kind of stuff was very interesting to me. Species evolve from one another through genetic mutation. When a positive genetic mutation proliferates through a given species it is often because it is beneficial to survival. Not all the time, however is it necessary to survival. Lets start with the hypothetical first ape. Over thousands of generations, mutations have occured and caused the proliferation of the different species - monkeys, baboons, apes, gorillas, humans, etc. Each is different, but they are not mutually exclusive. Just becasue monkeys are smaller, and have longer arms and legs doesn't mean they will be killed off, it means they thrive in the jungle swinging from tree to tree. Just because Gorillas are large and cumbersome doesn't mean they become extinct, it means they continue to live in their own way. With humans, you may have heard of the gradual progression through Cro-magnon and Neandrathal stages. Basically the theory is that as the human brain began to develop and distinguish itself from the ape brain, apes with these mutations began to evolve into humans as we know today. The reason the Cro-magnon and Neandrathals didn't survive is simply that the population wasn't strong enough to maintain itself.

The most common misconception about Darwins principle is that ONLY the strongest survive. Its not quite that simple. Each species that exists today does so becasue it has discoverd its niche in the world. Each time cells divide there are mutations. Some cause the death of the organism, some have no effect, some create positive changes. You just don't notice the evolution until you look at a large scale - ie thousands of years.

I think the Dead Sea Scrolls bridge that gap. The Bible we have today is consistent with those early manuscripts and show the events have not changed other than the language in which they were originally recorded.

I'll have to read up on it but my initial recollections are that the Dead Sea Scrolls contain documents mostly from BEFORE the time of Christ. I don't think the scrolls contained any gospels or writings of Jesus' apostles. Again, this is all recollection so I could be wrong.

[the underlørd]

I'd like to nominate the Underlord to be the Supreme Being! (at least at VS)

He's got his act together! He knows what is real - and what is imagined!

Good job, Kevin! I'm impressed!

Nice to know there are folks here on the path to enlightenment.....

Keep up the good work, Kevin. You are much further along than you even know!

Cheers! Rabbit - a 51 year old that once studied to be a Christian priest (and dumped it because it was BS).... LOL!

it's hard work bein right all the time.. :P

[T5Man]

Here are my 2 cents.

1. I dont think there was a god that went bang and we just appeared

2. Big bang find that a little far feched too.

I think that the answer might just be beyond are comprehending. EX. Like an ant trying to understand our world. The answer just might be beyond what the human mind can understand. Hope that made sense, my brain is a little dead after studying for finals.

Just one little idea I have had. Im really not sure at this point in my life to make of religon and god or a higher being idea. Time will tell. The jury is out on this one.

I was thinking something along the lines of this as well.

In other words. We have to literally think outside the box. We are all concerned with "scientifically" proving the existence of god when we can't. We are so bent and bounded by the rule that if we can't prove that God exists within our own 'set of rules' then God doesn't or can't exist. If God is indeed a 'supreme' omnipotent being, he is obviously 'out of this world' so to speak. What kind of supreme being would God be if we were able to comprehend his/her/it's existence, actions, etc. ? If we could, God wouldn't be God, just some guy who had the knowledge to make stuff.

On a side note - there are actually logical explanations of why God (or some kind of supreme being) has to exist. The long version would take an entire essay and it is kind of philosophical in nature, I could give you the short version but the philosphy behind it would probably bore most of you to death.

Here's the really short version: First I would have to explain to you the statement "There is no cause that is uncaused". And by this I mean everything exists the way it does because something caused it to exist that way.

Example: That computer you're typing on, that mouse you're moving, its all there because you bought it and put it there. It just didn't exist there one day "*POOF* there's a computer on my table." i.e. something caused it to be there - and that cause you. So what caused you to put the computer there? probably the need for a computer. Its all logic, "C" exists because of "B" and "B" exists because of "A", etc.

Now how 'bout you as a human being? Surely something must've caused you to exist. Something or someone. Sure you would say your parents. Your parents gave birth to you and here you are. Now keep going back in that 'backwards' direction to the birth of man kind - what created man kind? Science would have you believe a buncha cells came together. - sure we'll go with that for now. So what caused those cells to form? surely something caused that as well, and then what caused that? If we are to keep travelling backward in this direction it would continue on infinitely.

But surely everything has a beginning, it is incomprehensible by man that something has no beginning; something that is, always was and always will be. So if we are to go infinitely further and further backward we would inevitably arrive at what started everything - in otherwords God - a supreme being who is, was and always will be.

Now scientific theory would have you believe the Big Bang is what started everything in motion. But let me ask you this, what caused the big bang? If you are a logical person, you would be inclined to agree that the big bang, like the computer example explained above, just didn't *POOF* exist there one day - something must've caused that big bang.

Now flame away.

Edited December 6, 2005 by T5Man

[dancetheman]

This is a puzzling question, but keep in mind the periods of time we are dealing with. The first living organism appeared on earth 2,800,000,000 years ago. The earliest "human" existed 5 million years ago and the civilization with records is only a few thousand years old. The periods of time are just mind boggling, think of how long a year is then, then imagine a million of them, then 2,800 times that! Many changes have taken place from then until now, we are just limited in our scope of our lifetime and the liftime of our civilations history.

i think you're right, that amount of time is ridiculous and mind boogling, many changes probably have occurred since then but this is all based on an assumption that this world existed 2,800,000,000 years ago. How does one know carbon dating and all those tests are accurate. We don't, there is a pretty good chance they are right but you can't be certian just like in "religion". in science you still need some blind faith in the fact that the characteristics of carbon haven't changed since the beginning of time

and since we're talking about science, let's throw out a fun statistic or what you will call it

1) I believe in God and there is no God and i die (nothing gained nothing lost)

2) I don't believe in a God and there is one (nothing gained, eternal life lost)

3) I don't believe in a God and there isn't one (nothing gained nothing lost)

4) I do believe in a God and there is one (eternal life gained nothing lost)

you can't really lose...if you choose to believe and there isn't a God and you just die and that's all then who cares, you won't cuz you're dead and you'll never live again. But if there is a God and you die and have to face him, then you're screwed

alright that's enough typing since these posts in this thread are way too long

[djscoggins]

"religion is a creation."

A religion is different than following Jesus

"but bible says it is good and ok to own slaves (leviticus 25:44). so.. then it's ok right? bible has been both wrong and correct."

When Jesus came he changed many things from the old testament with new law. Jesus was change.

"if u believe u will be saved by believing in ur way, and all others are ney-sayers.. fine. but don't tell others how to live. just because they don't believe in ur way...doesn't mean they are less ethical, less moral."

I could not and would not force anyone to follow or belive in Jesus, nor do I judge anyone who isnt a beliver, but I will try to share the gospel and my testamony with people. And they can decied of their own free will.

"I find it hilarious ppl who attend church only to be good for that time they're in the church. where's the good for the rest of the week?"

I agree with this statement. I once heard a saying, " The greatest caus of atheists in the world is people who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and deny him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbeliving world finds unbeliveable" I think it was a DC talk song. And I recently heard Zig Ziggler say, "there are 7 days in a week and all of them belong to Jesus Christ, not 1 or 2." I used to be in this crowd. But I have since come to understand all that he has done for me in my life, and now I live for his glory and to tell others of this great reward. Which none of us deserve but have been given by grace.

"u don't need to be religious to be righteous and moral.. but religion can certainly be the guide to which u live to be righteous and moral."

This is the issue at hand. Being a righteous or moral person does not get you into heaven. "Wide is the path that leads to destruction and narrow is the path that leads to heaven." This is your eternal soul at stake.

"Errors occur precisely because religion is humanity's attempt to understand God"

Unfortunately this is true. But this happened because men wanted to do man's will, not God's. If we use the instruction book he provided(the bible) there is no error.

"If you are going to claim broad generalizations that the bible "sort of" got right as proof that it is inspired truth by God, then you also need to look at the historical context that the bible was created in. You are aware that the modern bible as we know it was comprised about 300 years after Christs death. Think about that, THREE HUNDRED YEARS. Its been argued that the development of the Christ Resurrection story was created to fuel persuasion to the Christian Faith around the same time that the Church had enormous oppurtunity to grab political power in the Roman Empire. As it turns out, this is exactly what historically happened. Around the time that the bible came to be, the Church grew powerful both in numbers and in political influence. Who's to say that political influence didn't sculpt the stories in the bible to their favor. Think anyone was alive 300 years later to refute or confirm the stories?"

And who is to say God didn't orchestrate this movement? I say again, the bible was breathed(inspired) by God thru man.

There is a mystery to God. It boggles the mind to try and comprehend his motives, methods or intentions.

He is there, and there will be many who do not belive and there will be many belivers in the last days who will doubt, Revelation says that in the end times the love/faith of many will wax cold. That is why vigilance is required. Every day is closer to home. Nothing in this world is worth the promise I have in christ. It takes faith, yes, but when you accept him as lord of your heart you are no longer unsure about tomorrow or eternity, you know.

I emplore those of you who have reservations or doubts and outright unbelivers. Pick up a bible and read the gospels and think about it open your heart and it will speak to you.

Edit for torquesteer because apparently he thinks my typos make me weak minded...

Edited December 7, 2005 by Raeleus

[RAzOR]

I love how creationists regard evolution as random.

Evolution and Natural selection are not a random process, they are based on which variation is best suited for the environment.

Then how does a cell know to develop one particular way and not a thousand other ways, over and over for a million iterations until a human is reached?

Eh?

[TorqueSteer]

The first life on Earth appeared 2,400,000,000 years ago. Many variations of organisms were created, and those best suited for their environment were able to survive and thus reproduce. Remember that this didn't happen in one lineage, but rather billions, at this rate and in this amount of time, it is very possible.

I takes faith, yes, but when you accept him as lord of your heart you are no longer unsure about tomorrow or eternity you know.

And this is exactly why religion is for the weak minded.

[JHEIII874T5M]

Then how does a cell know to develop one particular way and not a thousand other ways, over and over for a million iterations until a human is reached?

Eh?

that's the whole theory... and how can you even say a word on this forum... claiming you have a "Stage II" Speedtuning chip :P

[TheDude]

Religion is all mind control and who ever in here said it was like a crutch they were right. Religion scares you into believing. If you dont believe in god then u go to hell, well that sucks.

If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.

Voltaire

[djscoggins]

And this is exactly why religion is for the weak minded.

I also said following Jesus is not the same as a religion. And I return to the fact that our founding fathers designed the constitution that protects many of the right we have, including the right to deny or refuse to acknowledge God, from the 10 commandments and biblical principals and teachings. Trying to discredit someones views/beliefs by simply insulting their intelligence is not a valid argument either ;)

[JDELUNA]

I also said following Jesus is not the same as a religion. And I return to the fact that our founding fathers designed the constitution that protects many of the right we have, including the right to deny or refuse to acknowledge God, from the 10 commandments and biblical principals and teachings. Trying to discredit someones views/beliefs by simply insulting their intelligence is not a valid argument either

If only the world can just follow the 10 commandments that God has given us, then there would be no wars, hate, etc. They are so simple in nature so why can't we just do them ?? God Bless. :)

[dancetheman]

I also said following Jesus is not the same as a religion. And I return to the fact that our founding fathers designed the constitution that protects many of the right we have, including the right to deny or refuse to acknowledge God, from the 10 commandments and biblical principals and teachings. Trying to discredit someones views/beliefs by simply insulting their intelligence is not a valid argument either

well said.

lets remember what we are discussing is simply, is there a God or a Supreme Being. Not how religion is the crutch of the weak and has brainwashed people.

just like Raeleus said, following Jesus or God (we will use the Christian God in this case) is not the same thing as religion, rather it is a relationship between you and the Maker. You can choose to believe or choose not to believe however it is clearly laid out for you what happens depending on what you choose. What is wrong with that? There isn't a scam there, God says believe in Jesus and you will live, don't believe and you will die. He doesn't pick by random who goes to hell, there are no strings attached.

It's like breathing for us humans. As all you scientists know, if we don't breathe, we will die or our bodies will make us breathe. If we breathe then we continue to function. You can choose to do either one but you know well enough what happens depending on what you choose. It is just the way the universe is and how the human body functions.

Unfair? Hardly since the word has little meaning in this scenario. Fairness has nothing to do with heaven and hell, it is just the way things were laid out since the beginning of time like the law of gravity and such...it's the way the universe works and it will continue to work in such a way whether you think it suck, is unfair and so on.

Following Jesus has nothing to do with weak mindedness, rather people who would rather take the chance to live