Is There A God Or Supreme Being?

[steve s]

.... As a Biology student, this kind of stuff was very interesting to me. Species evolve from one another through genetic mutation. When a positive genetic mutation proliferates through a given species it is often because it is beneficial to survival. Not all the time, however is it necessary to survival.....The most common misconception about Darwins principle is that ONLY the strongest survive. ...

for all those with questions about evolution... how do u explain that many great apes are able to have a recognition of self after a few years of age (while a human baby is closer to 1)? while the rest of the monkeys and animal population cannot identify themselves in the mirror for life. what about elephants who seem to develop lingering feelings over bones of former elephants in the same clans... even when the bones were from corpes that died years ago. if recognition of self is a determination of soul.. (hypothetical).. does that mean apes have soul? another interesting thing just brought to my attention is the apparent subpopulation of chimps, 2% of all chimps, that are mostly located in the central african jungles.. they have 48 chromosomes like all chimpanzees.. but some have a slight alteration in their genetic makeup.. even fewer are those with the rare genetic makeup AND that allow them to appear human. these chimps instead, stand upright, walk upright, have bald heads, less pronounced jaws, and act human.. (normal chimps cannot stand and walk upright with shoulders back because their hip bones do not allow them to do so, and have to be trained and even so, can only walk very short distances.) these rare chimps curiously do many "human" things without being trained. also, when the human genome project was ongoing, many scientists predicted a huge number of genes that would differentiate us from primitive life form such as bacteria.. yet, when the project completed, many of the original projections were overly optimistic (100,000+ genes predicted, 30,000 genes realisitic). the similarities were far more than dissimilarities. all basic cell functions and pathways are pretty much the same throughout many of the different kingdoms of plant/animal life.

we are 98% genetically similar to chimps. between us humans, we are 99.9% similar. yet we are so distinctively different in so many ways. the majority of the functions we find that enable life are common throughout.

and the shrinking sun question..some of the data came from the 1800s.. sometimes spotty due to limitations in technology. more recent findings show the sun does not shrink at 5ft/hr.. therefore, sun touching earth at this point is not particular true... just like some theories can be proven, u can say it's probably true to a certain degree of confidence however u cannot prove it's not false, but u can say definitely false and say that with absolute confidence. vice versa.. somethings are just like that. (rough example.. prior to invitro fertilization, a child can be said with 100% confidence who the mother is, one witnesses the mother who gave birth, but one can never be 100% sure who the father is.)

so how does the supernatural come into question? is it really possible that something planted us here? did the supernatural(s) find a formula and used it to create the diversity from something homologous to all? one of the most important discovers is the ability to transcribe genes of one animal to another. human insulin can be produced in bacteria for diabetes patients. nobel prize winners have been able to move genes from one segment to another to create fruit flys with wings on the wrong section of the insect's body, and legs instead of wings..etc. there is a lot scientific evidence that somehow, all life is linked through the simple mechanics of the four nucleic acids.

the brightest mind in the 20th century couldn't put together the theory of gravity with the rest of the theories of the physical world (relativity, quantum mechanics, static mechanics, etc.).. einstein struggled with this for the remainder of his life as he tried to link gravity with everything else. just like pre-gallileo views about the earth being flat because technology limited travel, just because einstein couldn't figure it out, doesn't mean there isn't a link. gallileo was prosecuted by the religious power for blasphemy..

flip the coin, and ask, just because we can't prove it, doesn't mean some supernatural, be it one or many, doesn't exist.. perhaps the corporeal form of humanity cannot solve this until the corporeal form has been abandoned..

what we need to do is keep an open mind.. for both science and religious designs.. but at the same time, u cannot refute some of the scientific data that has come up with the last few hundred years.. and the knowledge is exponential.. future discoveries could bring more pieces into the puzzle..

[RAzOR]

that's the whole theory... and how can you even say a word on this forum... claiming you have a "Stage II" Speedtuning chip

Well, Oliver did call the 17 psi map Stage II and the standard 15 psi one Stage I. I have faith that my 15G occassionally hits 17psi on full throttle downshifts! :lol:

[resa850]

hey guys i haven't had a chance to read this entire thread. i've been busy with school. if anyone is being rude, please pm me and i will close it.

theresa

[steve s]

hey teresa.. it's actually been pretty civil. let's keep it that way ppl!

[RAzOR]

Actually, the old Russia/Soviet Union has a lot of Eastern Orthodox influence

Actually, as I understand it, the Soviets attempted to eliminate it but it was too entrenched. Regardless, the Soviet Union was officially atheist.

[JCviggen]

IF YOU BELIEVE THAT RELIGEON IS BUNK:

So you believe that the big bang just happened? (What happened right beofre that?)

Where to even begin.

First of all "before" the big bang is irrelevant as time itself only starts at that point.

Secondly, when/what/how was God itself created then? There is NO POSSIBLE WAY except to say "well it just did period and it requires belief" Dont try to argue science if you are not going to be logical.

Thirdly, you seem to think facts which are not 100% known/understood for being false by definition. If there is something that humanity does not, or perhaps will never understand this has ZERO to do with wether or not there is a god. We may have limited understanding of the universe, that does not change anything. You just have to be able to accept that we dont know everything. Because you dont know or understand something is zero proof or even suggestion of a God.

Science improves itself, is sceptical and tests its own theories. If they fall flat on their behind then so be it. Religion does nothing of the sort, all it does is twist itself into as many ways as possible to hang onto what MUST be true. Uber religious people NEED it to be true. Which leads to the problem that you simply cant argue logic with anyone hardcore into religion. Whatever doesnt fit them is rejected automatically.

[MrWinkey]

This whole post is pretty heavy for one and being a ministers son I grew up in the church and I can say that I do not really agree with TODAYS churches in many aspects. However I do believe in Christ and I will continue to believe and try as best as possible to comply with his teachings. I personally have not been to a church service in a few years and I'm at a major deciding point right now as to what church I want to attend. Many are about giving to build the church, but I need to find one for my son who is 5 and not baptized and won't be until he learns of the teachings and what it's all about(other than what we have taught him).

I could babble about this for hours but I suck at SPELING etc. Christ says for those that believe they will be saved. When you pray you can do so in a closet(book of Job I believe). I would never push religion on anyone but I feel that those that believe and follow his teachings will be saved? If you don't believe thats fine but when your dead your dead right? Christ has offered eternal salvation to those that believe? So why not believe? Jesus said he will come like a theif in the night. So NO ONE knows when, nor will any scientist crack the universal mystery in my opinion(many of these scientific findings make me think as well but I always keep my faith in Christ). You guys have made some great points and are very intelligent where I'm fairly uneducated but in my opinion if you believe no matter what faith you have or have been taught you will sit with God and his eternal bliss! So why not believe? Just my thoughts? ;)

[TorqueSteer]

Where to even begin.

First of all "before" the big bang is irrelevant as time itself only starts at that point.

Secondly, when/what/how was God itself created then? There is NO POSSIBLE WAY except to say "well it just did period and it requires belief" Dont try to argue science if you are not going to be logical.

Thirdly, you seem to think facts which are not 100% known/understood for being false by definition. If there is something that humanity does not, or perhaps will never understand this has ZERO to do with wether or not there is a god. We may have limited understanding of the universe, that does not change anything. You just have to be able to accept that we dont know everything. Because you dont know or understand something is zero proof or even suggestion of a God.

Science improves itself, is sceptical and tests its own theories. If they fall flat on their behind then so be it. Religion does nothing of the sort, all it does is twist itself into as many ways as possible to hang onto what MUST be true. Uber religious people NEED it to be true. Which leads to the problem that you simply cant argue logic with anyone hardcore into religion. Whatever doesnt fit them is rejected automatically.

I completely agree with you, but you must remember that religion is not in any way logical, its about believing something that can't ever be proven to exist. and the easy way out because they choose to ignore the logical process of science. Everyone has their own choice about what to believe, but I will never believe in something which promotes ignorance.

Edited December 12, 2005 by TorqueSteer

[djscoggins]

I completely agree with you, but you must remember that religion is not in any way logical, its about believing something that can't ever be proven to exist. and the easy way out because they choose to ignore the logical process of science. Everyone has their own choice about what to believe, but I will never believe in something which promotes ignorance.

John 15:13

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

Ex 20:12

" Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee."

Ex 20:13

"Thou shalt not kill."

Ex 20:14

"Thou shalt not commit adultery."

Ex 20:15

"Thou shalt not steal."

Ex 20:16

"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour."

Yea that stuff is sooo ignorant...

[atbspinner]

I completely agree with you, but you must remember that religion is not in any way logical, its about believing something that can't ever be proven to exist. and the easy way out because they choose to ignore the logical process of science. Everyone has their own choice about what to believe, but I will never believe in something which promotes ignorance.

You can't "prove" it does not exist.

So who's promoting ignorance?

Until you understand first hand what it means to believe in God and experience the power

of His salvation, you gerneralize what you can't possibly understand.

How much science have you experienced first hand? My guess is most have "faith" in what

someone else tells them or take for truth what is read in a book. I'm not saying that everything

you don't experience first hand is not truthful.

I am telling you that I have experienced first hand the power and grace of God.

That my friend is the difference between your "ignorance" and my "ignorance".

Ignorance is bliss! :D

[dancetheman]

I completely agree with you, but you must remember that religion is not in any way logical, its about believing something that can't ever be proven to exist. and this is the easy way out because they choose to ignore the logical process of science. Everyone has their own choice about what to believe, but I will never believe in something which promotes ignorance.

the way you have spoken about science almost makes it seem that science and the scientific method is a religion in itself...

as a scienctist you must understand that science does not seek to prove or dispute things it cannot observe. science is limited to what can be observed and things like the soul and the mind and alot of things within our own bodies can never be understood. in the same way, Christianity is not out there to destroy science or vice versa (althought some groups may disagree). Rather it explains the relationship between us (humans) and God. You don't see the bible trying to disprove the laws of physics and stuff because there is no point, it is totally irrelavant to the point of Christianity.

Likewise, science will always only study what can be observed in the natural world. it is limited to this and to say that thoughts and beliefs about the spiritual world are illogical and do not comply with science is wrong because science itself does not seek to disprove these things :)

[TorqueSteer]

You can't "prove" it does not exist.

So who's promoting ignorance?

Until you understand first hand what it means to believe in God and experience the power

of His salvation, you gerneralize what you can't possibly understand.

How much science have you experienced first hand? My guess is most have "faith" in what

someone else tells them or take for truth what is read in a book. I'm not saying that everything

you don't experience first hand is not truthful.

I am telling you that I have experienced first hand the power and grace of God.

That my friend is the difference between your "ignorance" and my "ignorance".

Ignorance is bliss!

This just makes absolutely no sense, theres no logical argument with what you said so ill stop here.

the way you have spoken about science almost makes it seem that science and the scientific method is a religion in itself...

as a scienctist you must understand that science does not seek to prove or dispute things it cannot observe. science is limited to what can be observed and things like the soul and the mind and alot of things within our own bodies can never be understood. in the same way, Christianity is not out there to destroy science or vice versa (althought some groups may disagree). Rather it explains the relationship between us (humans) and God. You don't see the bible trying to disprove the laws of physics and stuff because there is no point, it is totally irrelavant to the point of Christianity.

Likewise, science will always only study what can be observed in the natural world. it is limited to this and to say that thoughts and beliefs about the spiritual world are illogical and do not comply with science is wrong because science itself does not seek to disprove these things

I love how you think Im referring to Christianity when I say the word religion.

[JCviggen]

I completely agree with you, but you must remember that religion is not in any way logical, its about believing something that can't ever be proven to exist. and the easy way out because they choose to ignore the logical process of science. Everyone has their own choice about what to believe, but I will never believe in something which promotes ignorance.

Very true.

The whole problem is that what makes religious people believe is something they feel, or that they simply cannot imagine there isnt something bigger. This is fair, and everybody should think the way they feel best! Life's too short and you should live it the way it feels best to you.

But when it comes down to it....you simple CANNOT trust the human mind or intuition to be accurate. Its really not. In the grand scheme of the universe, whatever we think or feel is very inconsequential and based on a very narrow point of view. Our brains work pretty well here on earth in our familiar environment. We have made our own reality based on what we see every day. Its not really that straight forward when you dig deeper. A lot of things are counter-intuitive simply because they run opposite to what our eyes show us. This gives us a natural feeling of something being not right. Regardless, many such counter-intuitive things have long been proven.

It has also been shown that there are actual differences in the brain of religious people and "non-believers". Since the difference is actually so physical in nature, isnt that a bloody good indication of what religion really is?

I often feel uneasy when I see parents teach their children very extensively about religion, it often equates to literally programming humans to be religious. Its not so much that they really believe, it is that they are simply not able to believe anything else. If your whole environment since age 0 had believed in blue spacemonkeys coming soon....it would have felt as normal and natural as any other religion does to their believers.

Anyway, in these discussions you will never convince anybody and it's not the point either. But in the best case scenario it at least shows the arguments of hardcore religious people are incredibly superficial and narrow-minded and not based on any sound logic whatsoever. Believing is fine, just keep an open mind and dont push it onto others. I would say that includes your own children. Let them figure it our when they have reached an age where they can think for themselves.

[steve s]

...10 commandments...

Yea that stuff is sooo ignorant...

it's not... the beliefs behind it are present in many cultures and religions far older than judo-christian as well.

but how many of u actually practice all of it?

[atbspinner]

It has also been shown that there are actual differences in the brain of religious people and "non-believers". Since the difference is actually so physical in nature, isnt that a bloody good indication of what religion really is?

Physical difference? What would it be?

How do you explain the fact that most "believers" were once "non-believers" and have seen both sides of the argument with first hand experience and do not revert back to their original beliefs?

How has religion and God survived for this long and not faded away with time?

Why is your belief of no God putting you in a major minority?

You are right about the fact that science will not prove or disprove the existence of God.

But to assume anyone with a religious foundation is narrow-minded is, well, narrow-minded.