Is There A God Or Supreme Being?

[whitev70r]

ok. but.. if God was all knowing.. it should've known that slavery is wrong. yet, writings in the Bible still consider slavery ok.. which leads us back to the question of who wrote the Bible..

There are some who would disagree with the war in Iraq and stand up and say so. But in the same breath, they can say to the US, if you capture Iraqi soldiers or civilians, treat them with respect, do not abuse them and don't torture them. If you say the latter, it doesn't automatically mean that you support the war. One statement deals with the ideal, the other deals with the immediate context. Likewise, just because there are some verses in the Bible that deal with the treatment of slaves, it doesn't automatically mean that God condones slavery. These are instructions to make a bad situation more bearable for the victims.

The ones in the Bible that you refer to are ones that deal with the immediate historical context when slavery was part of the fabric of society. When you take a look at the Bible as a whole, and not just verses here and there, you have this ideal: the dignity and sanctity of human life, freedom and equality for all people. These are principles and ideals that are held high in the Bible AND I would think, in all world religions.

[JCviggen]

Some seem to have the idea the bible changed relatively little through the centuries... if you want to spend time reading about it... http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm very good if not a little lengthy essay, well researched.

[gdizzle]

ok. but.. if God was all knowing.. it should've known that slavery is wrong. yet, writings in the Bible still consider slavery ok.. which leads us back to the question of who wrote the Bible..

This is flawed, slavery today is wrong, slavery then, not so wrong.

[atbspinner]

so why does the Bible condone slavery?

leviticus chapter 25 clearly illustrates god condones, slaves are to be bought, sold, and handed down like property. there are other passages including the exodus that illustrate similar points.

i think we can we all agree slavery is immoral. however, slavery clearly is articulated in the Bible as ok..

You got this all wrong. The Bible is not condoning slavery.

You have to know a little about the culture to see the point. It was common for Israelites that owed money to someone to sell property to pay back debt. If someone did not own property, then the person could "sell" themselves to their debtor to pay back what was owed. These type of people literally had nothing of value and were basically working for someone to pay back what was owed.

The scriptures to which you refer in Leviticus are guidelines on how to treat someone that is working for you to pay back debt. These rules were meant to help the person in debt and did work in their favor.

Of course, this is a very simplistic explanation. To fully understand these passages you have to read more from Leviticus to gain understanding about the "Year of Jubilee". If you are really interested get a Bible and see for yourself.

[dancetheman]

I love how you think Im referring to Christianity when I say the word religion.

these are the religions that have gods or supreme beings:

Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, and Christianity and perhaps some assorted cults

we should really make clear which one we are talking about but since i have no experience in any of those except Christianity i feel that it would be unfair to comment on any aspect of those religions

fair enough?

and we should really change the topic to say "arguements for and against Christianity" or "arguements for and against atheism"

:lol:

Edited December 14, 2005 by dancetheman

[MrWinkey]

I will say a prayer tonight and ask the Supreme Being(in my case Jesus Christ) that all this wonderful knowledge you guys have is used 20 years from now to run this joint called Earth! We need unity in this world period! Focus on us as a whole in the big blue marble, use what you were taught to decide what is right and wrong.

Think about the last time when you did something good and the last time you did something that you felt guilty about then weigh them and see which way the scale goes? I'm sure there is a bigger picture after death, one that we cannot imagine in our human form and many religions taught that back into the Aztecs and Myans (which there calendar runs out in 2025 I believe?) I'm just running my mouth but this spot is a good vent spot for me, alot of you guys posting are our future? ......One of my favorite quote's ever was in Gregs Sig. "Life is short and hard like a body building elf"

Peace to all and "Merry Chistmas"

"Winkey" ;)

[steve s]

as long as we keep dialogue open and amicable

This is flawed, slavery today is wrong, slavery then, not so wrong.

You got this all wrong. The Bible is not condoning slavery.

perhaps i did get it wrong (i've only read so much of it as part of literature class long time ago). but it points out the context during which it was written does it not? would it not mean the seven main versions of the Bible in english were for the time period in which it was rewritten? so maybe some portion of it were truly God's words.. but where does it end? where does the translation by humans begin? does not all translation incur a certain point of view? as illustrated by slavery 2000 yrs ago and slavery 200 yrs ago?

[dancetheman]

let me try to clarify this

here is the verse being referred to

44As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. 45You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. 46You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly. Leviticus 25:44-46(ESV)

if you read it carefully, you will notice that it says you MAY buy male and female slaves...(verse 44) and in verse 46 You MAY make slaves of them. All of the bible is God's word and He allows the israelites to have slaves, He does not approve of it as does not permit them to have slaves amongst their own people but since they insist, He lets them. This is the type of God he is, to each is given free will. In this case the Israelites can choose to have slaves or not. And if you think this is the only version that has it i shall post two more examples...

(New American Standard)

44'As for your male and female slaves whom you may have--you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you.

45'Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession.

46'You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. (A)But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one another.

(New International Version)

44 " 'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

Now you can see that God doesn't like slavery but He permits it

therefore it does not really contradict anything. In the 21st cent. we now choose to outlaw slavery, that is the only difference because slavery was never really "ok" to begin with

I know most of you won't believe me when i say that it doesn't contradict so very well another example. The first king of the jews was Saul and it was never intended that Israel would have a king, God was suppose to be their only king but they demanded one from God and He ALLOWED it even though it wasn't what He wanted

And the LORD said to Samuel, "Obey the voice of the people in all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them. 1 Samuel 8:7

so there you guys go, God lets us choose but His stance on these matters is always the same. It is we that change :)

[Volvokiller]

Volvokiller, you are so simple minded. I certainly do not have to disprove the earlier statement: "Religion is more present in undereducated and low-intelligence groups", whenever you post, you prove that this statement is wrong. (Just copying you, more emoticons mean that your arguments are stronger, right?)

Nobody said that it is okay to have slaves today if you release them in 7 years. But instruction like that during the days of Leviticus was a monumental difference compared to what was accepted as societal norm.

Wow, you really cut to the core. I guess I'm undereducated and have low intellegence because I used a lol smiley. I was only commenting on the fact that you contradicted two major beliefs in Christianity with one post! Allow me.

1. The Bible is inspired by God and considered God's Word.

2. God is omnipotent and infallible.

So if the Word of God condones slavery of other peoples from surronding nations, yet Christians today think slavery of others is wrong. Something doesn't gel. Either the Word of God is wrong, or Christians today are wrong. No?

You go on to say that no Christians would condone slavery yet you cannot hold the belief that our US ancestors who kept slaves were immoral. OF COURSE YOU CAN. Slavery of another no matter how nice you are, no matter how much respect you show, no matter if and when you release them is still WRONG. Disagree? Just becasue the custom is accepted doesn't mean the custom is moral.

This whole question of slavery points out the glaring concept (in my mind) that the Bible was constructed by man to incorporate God in his (man's) ideal, along with his (man's) beliefs and customs.

Please refer me to my other simple minded posts. I thought I made coherent and valid arguments.

[whitev70r]

So if the Word of God condones slavery of other peoples from surronding nations, yet Christians today think slavery of others is wrong. Something doesn't gel. Either the Word of God is wrong, or Christians today are wrong. No?

You go on to say that no Christians would condone slavery yet you cannot hold the belief that our US ancestors who kept slaves were immoral. OF COURSE YOU CAN. Slavery of another no matter how nice you are, no matter how much respect you show, no matter if and when you release them is still WRONG. Disagree? Just becasue the custom is accepted doesn't mean the custom is moral.

This whole question of slavery points out the glaring concept (in my mind) that the Bible was constructed by man to incorporate God in his (man's) ideal, along with his (man's) beliefs and customs.

Please refer me to my other simple minded posts. I thought I made coherent and valid arguments.

Volvokiller, I apologize for the comment I made previously, I will try to stick to the issues:

1. Your 2nd paragraph from above quote. Yes, you can hold US ANCESTORS responsible for slavery. My point was that you cannot hold Americans TODAY responsible for slavery laws 200 years ago. Agree or disagree? If you agree, then therefore, you cannot hold Christians TODAY for slavery laws 3000 years ago. If you disagree, and you hold Christians today responsible for slavery laws 3000 years ago, that would mean you, presumably American are still responsible for slavery committed 200 years ago. Which do you choose?

2. I tried to explain that it's not black and white, yes or no. I thought fundamentalists were the ones that were stereotyped/labelled as black and white, either/or. I find this issue more complex and I used a previous illustration. War in Iraq.

1st statement: I am against the war in principle.

2nd statement: US troops should treat prisoners respectfully, no abuse, no torture, etc.

If all you heard me say was this 2nd statement, you might think that I was condoning the war, condoning capturing prisoners, etc. but I'm not. The 1st statement deals with the bigger picture, ideal. The 2nd statement deals with the reality of the situation. If you read Leviticus, these are what I call 2nd statements that deal with the reality at that particular time namely, a society that permitted slaves. If you read the Bible as a whole, you can draw the bigger picture, and with a fair reading of the WHOLE bible, you must conclude that God does not condone slavery and that we ought to have respect and dignity for all human life, freedom and equality for all, this is the ideal.

Edited December 14, 2005 by whitev70r

[dancetheman]

So if the Word of God condones slavery of other peoples from surronding nations, yet Christians today think slavery of others is wrong. Something doesn't gel. Either the Word of God is wrong, or Christians today are wrong. No?

This whole question of slavery points out the glaring concept (in my mind) that the Bible was constructed by man to incorporate God in his (man's) ideal, along with his (man's) beliefs and customs.

Please refer me to my other simple minded posts. I thought I made coherent and valid arguments.

did you even read what i wrote ?

[Volvokiller]

Volvokiller, I apologize for the comment I made previously, I will try to stick to the issues:

1. Your 2nd paragraph from above quote. Yes, you can hold US ANCESTORS responsible for slavery. My point was that you cannot hold Americans TODAY responsible for slavery laws 200 years ago. Agree or disagree? If you agree, then therefore, you cannot hold Christians TODAY for slavery laws 3000 years ago. If you disagree, and you hold Christians today responsible for slavery laws 3000 years ago, that would mean you, presumably American are still responsible for slavery committed 200 years ago. Which do you choose?

I'm not sure we are looking at the same point. I'm not saying Christians today should be condemned becasue the Isrealites held slaves. I agree that you cannot hold people acountable today for the actions of their forefathers. What I am saying/trying to say is that since the actions of the ancestoral Isrealites were supposedly endorsed by God - ie written in the Bible, it stands to reason that either God was wrong or he changeds his mind based on the custom of the time - hardly Godlike.

did you even read what i wrote ?

Not until after I posted. So let me see if I get what you are saying. God allows man free will. Original sin, Adam and Eve, etc. So since the Isrealites wanted to enslave neighboring people and have a King, God says ok, but doesn't agree with it.

Now it seems to me reading the passages about having slaves that if this is the inspired word of God then he IS endorsing the use of slaves, even outlining the guidelines for which one can obtain and keep them. Isn't it more likely that man created this wording so that they seemed just in their actions?

I'm tiring of this conversation, not becasue I feel I am right and you are wrong just that I think much gets lost in the translation from ideas to words to keyboard. There isn't much you can say that will make me believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God as opposed to a book created by Man to guide early Jews in their beliefs. The fact that nearly every major religion has some version of a book inspired by Divinity leads me to conclude that it is part of the religious formula.

Edited December 14, 2005 by Volvokiller

[whitev70r]

What I am saying/trying to say is that since the actions of the ancestoral Isrealites were supposedly endorsed by God - ie written in the Bible, it stands to reason that either God was wrong or he changed his mind based on the custom of the time.

That was what my 2nd point tried to address. Don't evaluate overarching principles by specific instructions. I submit to you that when you read the Bible in its entirety, the ideal is dignity, sanctity, freedom and respect of all human life. The instructions on slavery in Leviticus were to make a bad situation bearable for the victim.

As one more support that God cares deeply for those who are captives/slaves, the Exodus event should demonstrate this (cf Prince of Egypt). Here is what Exo 3:7-10 reads:

7GOD said, "I've taken a good, long look at the affliction of my people in Egypt. I've heard their cries for deliverance from their slave masters; I know all about their pain. 8And now I have come down to help them, pry them loose from the grip of Egypt, get them out of that country and bring them to a good land with wide-open spaces, a land lush with milk and honey, the land of the Canaanite, the Hittite, the Amorite, the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite.

Edited December 15, 2005 by whitev70r

[Ivanfbi]

I don't believ in any kind of god,

[whitev70r]

I don't believ in any kind of god,

You are free to believe anything you want, I respect that. But please note this: your beliefs, or my beliefs for that matter, does not have any bearing whether God exists or not. God either exist or He doesn't, and our opinion has very little to do with that. In other words, God's existence is not based on an opinion poll. Agree?

Edited December 15, 2005 by whitev70r