Is There A God Or Supreme Being?

[djscoggins]

"Believers' lives are not any diffirent from those of non believers."

You are mistaken I know this for fact. I am witness to the blessings in my own life each and every day. Unless you dont believe in me either.

"You can credit a whole bunch of things to an invisible force. If I flip a coin and it lands where i guessed it would I can credit this to God. Or I could realise there was a 1 in 2 chance. Your pick."

If a loved one in your family was (hypothedically of course) stricken with a terminal malady of some sort and no doctors were able to diagnose it, let alone treat it, who would you turn to for support and healing? what would be you next course of action after man has failed you?would you seek help from our closest relative in the animal kingdom, chimps, or would you pray for them? Or maybe flip a coin and try something else?

"Who are you (or anyone of us) to decide something happened either by chance or by act of god period? Because humanity doesnt have all the answers doesnt mean you need to invent them. And yes, invent is the right word because it holds as much water so say we were created by creatures from an alien universe. Same amount of evidence. Look at animals. They have an extremely limited understanding of their surroundings. We humans are blessed with a huge amount of knowledge relative to animals, yet we only have a few pieces of the puzzle determined for sure. The fact that our understanding is limited should not have any relation to the existance of a supernatural power! It is in fact quite irrelevant to draw "conclusions" because of it. Now please read the article."

As easily as you discredit my beliefs and values I would think it would be obvious to you that I am entitled to believe or not believe anything I choose. Some people do not believe in the moonlanding or dinosaurs... Again this is free will. Then you speak of being "blessed with knowledge", just where do you think this knowledge came from? A single celled organism? Primates?

"I'm sorry are you serious? Lucifer? Was he on Jay Leno's show recently or something?"

Yes Satan himself... Do you "not not" believe in him as well?

In relation to my faith in the unseen. Can you calculate the wind also?

"Yes, yes we can....were you serious?"

Tell which way the wind will blow and how hard tomorrow at my house.

"There is the theory of evolution, and there are facts of evolution. Evolution has been recreated in controlled experiments and observed in nature. Furtermore, "facts" are things which are determined on grounds of evidence, calculation and observation. None of which are found in your claims by the way. You also seem to be a little behind in knowing what has been established and what not, if I can be so free to point this out...

Stop thinking so narrowly and read this http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-miscon...ons.html#chance

Evolution is a word that involves more than the Darn theory first formulated by Darwin."

You have not even looked into my "claims". Why whould I entertain your references when you will not do the same for me?.

Bottom line is this yes you are free to believe anything you wish. There are some things in this world that man "thinks" he has figured out and places equations on. When the whole time there is probably much more to the subject. The bible even refers to a vast growth of knowledge in the end times. I do not claim to be the best to debate this topic because I am still young in my walk, but I will pray that someone will come into your life who can give you a perspective that will speak to your heart better than I can. I do not give up tho, you remain in my prayers.

[atbspinner]

Stop thinking so narrowly and read this http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-miscon...ons.html#chance

Evolution is a word that involves more than the Darn theory first formulated by Darwin.

So, I can find a web page to argue for creationism just as easily.

Still does not answer the question.

What is your faith in?

[steve s]

You think that all of creation was an "Accident"? As stated before I cannot believe that all life on earth is merely the evolution of a lucky cell.

hmm.. then why is a few cells considered life when it comes to abortion? if a few cells is considered life, should not sperm be considered life? it has potential too.. either way, all life share very similar cellular metabolic pathways, such as cell division, cell replication.. there are numerous examples that bridge various families in the biological kingdom, even if we can't find our own missing link.

Here you state that evolution is "fact"... how do you know this? where you there when it happened? Even Einstein believed in a supernatural force, or being.

einstein spent his life trying to tie the theory of gravity with the rest of the theories of principles of the physical world, including his theory of relativity.. he couldn't.. as he grew older, he become more secluded.. he also become more spiritual.

[djscoggins]

You think that all of creation was an "Accident"? As stated before I cannot believe that all life on earth is merely the evolution of a lucky cell.

"hmm.. then why is a few cells considered life when it comes to abortion? if a few cells is considered life, should not sperm be considered life? it has potential too.. either way, all life share very similar cellular metabolic pathways, such as cell division, cell replication.. there are numerous examples that bridge various families in the biological kingdom, even if we can't find our own missing link."

A single celled organism floating around in the ocean is far from a zygote or a sperm, yes they are both made up of cells but are not the "same". The bible even says its better for a mans seed to go into the belly of a whore than be wasted. Also Im not saying cells do not have certain properties, but to think that life was created from a cosmic explosion all of this is merely chance... is silly to me.

[whitev70r]

Earlier I was reading how "spiritual" feelings can be perfectly recreated in the lab...people would actually feel a presence near them when all what was being done to them was some electrical signals fed onto their head, heck some people cried and called it a beautiful experience even though they knew they were in a lab.

Let's stop and think about this phenomenon and what it actually proves. It is a fact that medical researchers can trigger certain feelings with hormones or endorphins. That means if you were willing to go into a lab, a psych researchers can make you feel happy, sad, ecstactic, depressed, etc. by injecting or triggering the right amount of endorphines. Does this nullify real life experiences that produce these feelings or emotions? I don't think so. Just because you can trigger/reproduce joy/happiness, that doesn't nullify the actual experience does it? Eg. Just because we can reproduce happiness, does it nullify the happiness that comes from seeing a good friend that you haven't seen for a long time? No, I don't think so. So, what does your point actually prove? Now, who is the one who can't 'think' logically ?? Therefore, I see no real big issue with a lab being able to trigger endorphines that correpond to religious experience.

Hey, I notice that all four of us are online, why don't we just jump into the chat room and duke it out :>

[JCviggen]

Because there is now simply TOO MUCH misinformed/pointless stuff to reply to I will make this my last post and reply to a few things

Tell which way the wind will blow and how hard tomorrow at my house.

Watch the weather channel. Wind speeds and directions are predicted fairly accurately. They are calculated on a pretty big/rough scale, but obviously it CAN be done. Its accuracy is a matter of how local you want to get, i.e. how much computing power its worth to you.

Tell me, have you gone on airplanes? (I have this strange idea you've never gone TOO far abroad but okay)

Do you ever wonder like....how the plane is staying in the air? The principles behind the plane staying in the air are as well established as many others which are in direct conflics with, say, the bible. You may have heard the sun is supposed to revolve around the earth, which in term is supposed to be flat as a pooltable. You can argue "you can prove nothing!" but the plane is staying in the air, isnt it. Do you really give the earth being round a second thought?

So, I can find a web page to argue for creationism just as easily.

Give me one that actually backs up its claims like that site I pointed to does. Good luck. The religious arguments are easily debunked by the cold hard facts. Its amazing how far some of those creationist websites go in twisting science - or perhaps they just dont know any better.

You may also be interested to read the section where one of their authors replies to a "debunk" done on a religious website. Compare the 2. If you still think the religious one is more sensible, backing up nothing and pulling stuff out of thin air then nothing will ever convince you.

Again, if you dont have the knowledge or established facts at hand it IS as simple as picking the version you like most. But correct and incorrect are not determined by preference.

And life DID NOT START WITH A LUCKY CELL. A cell is way more advanced than the early building blocks of life.

Yes Satan himself... Do you "not not" believe in him as well?

You're not going to believe this, but actually I dont! Why would anyone who doesnt believe in God believe in Satan? Satan is only God's counterpart. Its like saying your invisible friend exists because your invisible mum told you so. Its one and the same dude...please.

You have not even looked into my "claims". Why whould I entertain your references when you will not do the same for me?.

? Some of the stuff you said, which could actually be shown to be wrong (as in, not just an opinion) I showed to be wrong in like 10 seconds flat. Do you just skip over answers that dont fit your belief?

Seriously, I am sure you're a really nice person and its admirable that you hold yourself to high values. Humanity as a whole could use better morals. Respect for that. You're just a little narrow minded in your interpretations.

You are mistaken I know this for fact. I am witness to the blessings in my own life each and every day. Unless you dont believe in me either.

Lets see the facts then. Everybody gets blessed by good things. Babies are born, accidents are avoided, love springs forth every single day regardless of people's religion. I have had my share of good luck and back luck, close calls and bad situations. Its life. If you want to attribute all good things to God that's fine. There is no statistical diffirence between the prosperity of life between religious and agnostic/atheists.

In the end it always comes down to "but when judgement day comes...!". Its sad that the last bastion of religion must always be scaring people into the consequences of not believing. It has gone on for centuries and still does, but it suffices to say its bollocks. If there would be a God pulling the strings, then he would also be responsible for making people the way they are. If belief were a personal, rational choice it would not be belief. Hence you would have to imply God made people to not believe.

And last but not lest....one of the biggest ironies the world has ever seen : Believers will often argue they simply cannot imagine anything as complicated or beautiful as life existing by chance. But they without a single thought accept something like a God has always existed without ever been created. Mix and match, apples and oranges, take your pick.

You may consider science a belief, but at least it examines all information available to better itself and to become more accurate. Religion, as it VERY clearly demonstrated here, uses twisted or plain wrong arguments to keep itself the way it is. It aims to remain static. That alone should have some alarm bells ringing.

Good night people...

edit : there's a chatroom?? :phear:

Edited December 24, 2005 by JCviggen

[djscoggins]

Aye this thread could infact, go on til Rapture.

Some do not recieve te gospel well, and it can be offensive to some. But I do believe that God reveals himself to all of us at one time or many in our lives, and some will either recieve him and some will reject him. It is choice.

that choice is yours alone.

For me there is no "comission check" gained for telling others about Christ. No quotas. No personal gain for me whatsoever. Only glory in his name. And the love for all of my brothers and sisters.

In Romans chapter 2 it says "God leads to repentance thru love". Not punishment, or intimidation or scare tactics. Love. Yes there are consequences, and I share because He commanded me to love others as he loved me. His will that none should perish.

I heard Dr. Mark rutland on the radio last night and he said He had red a poll in a magazine a few years back, about what phrases americans most like to hear. That is, from other people. The top 3 were:

1. I love you.

He said that people want to hear this. Reaffirmation that you are loved. And America wants to be loved. I like for my wife to tell me she loves me.

2. I forgive you.

This he said was 2nd because Americans want to be forgiven for grievances against friends and families. And that america has a guilty conscience. I agree with this because I feel horrible if I agrue with someone over something and I was wrong or if I was angry or mean in getting my point across.

3. Suppers ready!

This one was just funny. I even laughed when I heard this.

These were the top 3. This is also reminesenct of what Jesus says to you.

I love you... unconditionally.

I forgive you... your sins are forgiven and you are clean.

Suppers ready... come home... and eat at my table.

Merry Christmas guys :)

[dancetheman]

i'm afraid the whole point of evolution versus creation will never be solved despite the urls that are posted and here is my reason. Science is built on the scientific method correct? and the scientific method is a process in which observations are made and empirical evidence is gather and conclusions are made which are refutable by others who wish to attempt the same experiment and see if they can gather the same results. The scientific method also includes not throwing out theories when they are disproved but altering them so that they include new data.....so far so go?

so if you are a true scientist in these senses then you will never say evolution is wrong because it can never be disproved because the theory has only been out long enough to prove some aspects of it which include small alternations in species such as adaptation to pesticides by bugs. However, other things such as the complete creation of a new species due to evolution can never be proved unless millions of years have gone by and humans are still around and making observations.

saying that it is not yet falsified is safer than saying that it is true because basing all your evidence on things before mankind isn't the smartest way to make observations

and we all know we won't be alive to see the evolution of a completely new species because we only live 80 or so years

merry christmas

[JCviggen]

Merry Christmas guys

Merry xmas :)

[JDELUNA]

Merry xmas

I do not know what an Xmas is , might either be a relative to the X-men or a add on to the X-box, but Merry Christmas Everone !!!!! God Bless :)

Edited December 26, 2005 by JDELUNA

[TheDude]

happy hanukah

[Trunks850R]

merry CHRISTmas guys.

i think this whole topic has started to get out of hand, just remeber, the only 2 things in life that are free are our bodys and our agency. the ability to choose what we want to do. the ability to choose to belive or not belive. there have too many things in my life shown to me that proves there is a god, or somekind of supreme being keeping me alive and well. these things are very sacred to me and not something im ready to share with people i dont know or people that dont want to understand. these are things that have happen to me since i was 5 years old. belive what you want its your right to do so.

Travis

[whitev70r]

Is this thread dead?

I found this little parable/excerpt and thought it would be an interesing point of discussion. Some people may wish that this thread was dead but it's been resurrected . From Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra, the famous 'God is Dead' pronouncement. I thought it was interesing, what do you think?

Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market-place, and cried incessantly: "I am looking for God! I am looking for God!" As many of those who did not believe in God were standing together there, he excited considerable laughter. Have you lost him, then? said one. Did he lose his way like a child? said another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? or emigrated? Thus they shouted and laughed. The madman sprang into their midst and pierced them with his glances.

"Where has God gone?" he cried. "I shall tell you. We have killed him - you and I. We are his murderers. But how have we done this? How were we able to drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What did we do when we unchained the earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving now? Away from all suns? Are we not perpetually falling? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there any up or down left? Are we not straying as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is it not more and more night coming on all the time? Must not lanterns be lit in the morning? Do we not hear anything yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying God? Do we not smell anything yet of God's decomposition? Gods too decompose. God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we, murderers of all murderers, console ourselves? That which was the holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet possessed has bled to death under our knives. Who will wipe this blood off us? With what water could we purify ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we need to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we not ourselves become gods simply to be worthy of it? There has never been a greater deed; and whosoever shall be born after us - for the sake of this deed he shall be part of a higher history than all history hitherto."

Here the madman fell silent and again regarded his listeners; and they too were silent and stared at him in astonishment. At last he threw his lantern to the ground, and it broke and went out. "I have come too early," he said then; "my time has not come yet. The tremendous event is still on its way, still travelling - it has not yet reached the ears of men. Lightning and thunder require time, the light of the stars requires time, deeds require time even after they are done, before they can be seen and heard. This deed is still more distant from them than the distant stars - and yet they have done it themselves."

It has been further related that on that same day the madman entered divers churches and there sang a requiem. Led out and quietened, he is said to have retorted each time: "what are these churches now if they are not the tombs and sepulchres of God?"

[whatme]

RELIGION IS THE OPIATE OF THE PEOPLE -some respected guy i cant rememebr