So The Middle East Just Exploded....

[RAzOR]

I've avoided coming back here but it seems there's been a pile of BS growing here and I have to comment.

1. FOR THOSE WHO SAY that other Religeons have been terrorists too:

WHAT YOU MEAN TO DO is moraly equate Islamo-Fascists with the Judeo-Christian west.

THIS IS, of course, wrong. The crusades were not terror, not on either side. The west has civil rights, separation of church and state, freedom of religeon. The rule under Islamo-Fascism DOES NOT. This is bread and butter right vs wrong to any intellectually honest person. The west is accountable to its standards, Islamo fascists have no standards.

2. FOR THOSE WHO SAY that this is a war of Religeon:

IT IS a war of religeon for Islamo-Fascists whose goal is to see Israel destroyed for no other reason other than they are Jews. The goal is Israel is to survive.

3. FOR THOSE WHO SAY that Israel's tactics are just as bad as Hezbolla's:

Hezbollah fires Iranian supplies missiles indiscriminately into civiliam areas. Israelis give advance warning and time before they move in. Hezbollah operatives hide amongst civilians and fire from behind them. They wear the same clothes as civilains. Israelis are uniformed professional soldiers. It is war, and under these conditions civilians will unforunately die, especially with Hezbollahs tactics. It is therefore easy to accuse Israel of blatanty killing kids but a person with any intellect is not that naive. If Israel wanted to kill women and kids it could do so by the hundreds of thousands.

4. FOR THOSE WHO SAYS ISRAEL HAS BEEN THE PROBLEM FROM 1948:

If the Islamo-Fascists lay down their weapons there is peace.

If Israel lays down its weapons it is destroyed.

5. FOR THOSE WHO SAY ISRAEL IS ON SOMEONE ELSE'S LAND:

Noone on this planet has the ability to figure out whose it was since it just depends on when in history you look. At time of the creation of the State of Israel, it was British territory inhabited by Syrians, Arabs, and some Jews. It is useful to note here that Islamo-Fascists have a problem with non-Muslims living in ANY AND ALL land that was once Muslim, no matter long ago it was or for how long. Once Muslim, it must always be Muslim and those on it must convert or be killed.

6. FOR THOSE WHO SAY ITS ABOUT CAPITALISM VS TRADITION

This is apples and oranges. WHAT IT IS about is our values vs theirs. If you value you freedom, you fight them. If you value women and civil rights, you fight them. If you value freedom of speech, you fight. them. And for its own defense, capitalsim has helped create the greatest, most free, and most generous country to ever have existed. It's not perfect, no one says it is, but it the best so far. And if we don't start treating it that way again soon, we will lower the bar and we will take this country there.

Notes:

1. This is not a war with all of Islam. It is a war with Islamo-Fascists. The head of which is Iran and Syria and their proxies- Hamas, Hezbollah and Al Qaida.

2. The west is weak-willed and uncertain of its righteousness thanks to the minions of the morally obfuscated. This is our weakness. It comes from within. To truly solve the problem, massive swift and brutal military action must be undertaken to overthrow and bury the regimes in Iran and Syria. If this is not done, we are fighting a cancer with local treatments and the prognosis is not good.

3. If the West did not rely on oil, and did not insist on fairly paying for it (as oppossed to simply occupying and taking it as they certainly could do) it is really funding its own enemy. Consider another front to this war is the quest for energy independence. And that potentially makes big oil a big enemy of its own country.

I'm tired. If I missed anything, I'll follow.

And a special note who think this country is evil or equivalent to Islamo-Fascists, go F yourself, I'll pay for your ticket to the Middle East. The situation is getting serious and you had better think long and hard about whose side your are really on. To those who are with me, whether a lot or a little, I'm glad you are voting for the 21st century.

Edited August 7, 2006 by RAzOR

[xtc]

it might need balancing and perspective but it doesnt need dirka dirka mohammed jihad terrorists making slanderous comments out of his jerk.

have a nice day, and if you decide to blow someone up, make sure they are related to you.

Such a facist remark. My post attacked no one personally. But to enlighten you a little. I have both Muslims and Christians in my family. I was raised as a Christian. I have not advocated violence. I would like to see a peacefully solution. I do not hate the Jewish people or any other group of people. However I believe that a balanced approach needs to be taken in the Middle East. I am a conservative but not a neo-conservative. I know it sounds cliche, but it is true, my best friend is Jewish.

FYI Dirka, dirka is highly offensive but I imagine that wouldn't make a difference to you.

Edited August 7, 2006 by xtc

[xtc]

I've avoided coming back here but it seems there's been a pile of BS growing here and I have to comment.

1. FOR THOSE WHO SAY that other Religeons have been terrorists too:

WHAT YOU MEAN TO DO is moraly equate Islamo-Fascists with the Judeo-Christian west.

THIS IS, of course, wrong. The crusades were not terror, not on either side. The west has civil rights, separation of church and state, freedom of religeon. The rule under Islamo-Fascism DOES NOT. This is bread and butter right vs wrong to any intellectually honest person. The west is accountable to its standards, Islamo fascists have no standards.

The Crusades attacked and killed tons of Muslims. The war was started by the Christians. This isn't terror? Is it only terror when the attacker doesn't wear a uniform?

Civil rights in the west are currently under siege. We have no right to tell other nations how to live. Look at our crime rates, our rape rates, our divorce rates, our child molestation rates. Muslims are accountable to standards some much stricter than the west. See more below on other numbers.

Muslims believe Christ was a great prophet. Muslims follow Judaic law, it is where they get their strict laws from. Muslims, Christians and Jews are all people of the book. They all believe in the Old Testament. So we have shared values from a common source.

2. FOR THOSE WHO SAY that this is a war of Religeon:

IT IS a war of religeon for Islamo-Fascists whose goal is to see Israel destroyed for no other reason other than they are Jews. The goal is Israel is to survive.

There are Facists on all sides. It was a Jewish man who killed Rabin.

3. FOR THOSE WHO SAY that Israel's tactics are just as bad as Hezbolla's:

Hezbollah fires Iranian supplies missiles indiscriminately into civiliam areas. Israelis give advance warning and time before they move in. Hezbollah operatives hide amongst civilians and fire from behind them. They wear the same clothes as civilains. Israelis are uniformed professional soldiers. It is war, and under these conditions civilians will unforunately die, especially with Hezbollahs tactics. It is therefore easy to accuse Israel of blatanty killing kids but a person with any intellect is not that naive. If Israel wanted to kill women and kids it could do so by the hundreds of thousands.

Israeli commanders have admitted this raid was planned before the kidnapping.

Israel has been kidnapping people from Lebanon for years and Hizbollah has asked for them back numerous times. Hizbollah gave advanced notice to Israel that if kidnapped Lebanese citizens were not returned, Israeli soldiers would be kidnapped. Israel kidnaps citizens, Hizbollah kidnaps soldiers. If Israel's goal was to get the soldiers returned alive bombing places they might be held will not achieve that goal. They may kill their own soldiers. So what is the reason for bombing civilian targets? To inflict pain and damage upon the Lebanese people. Israel can't kill women and children by the 100,000's. Then Syria, Iran would step into the fray. The UN would have to step in. Saudi would be under pressure from the Arab league to cut oil to America. So Israel can't do it. They are pushing the boundaries as far as they can currently.

4. FOR THOSE WHO SAYS ISRAEL HAS BEEN THE PROBLEM FROM 1948:

If the Islamo-Fascists lay down their weapons there is peace.

If Israel lays down its weapons it is destroyed.

The Stern and the Irgun used terrorism on the English. The Irgun bombed the King David Hotel. If Hizbollah lays down its weapons, Israel can continue to kidnap Lebanese citzens, occupy Southern Lebanon, divert water away from the Palestinians and continue to oppress them. This is peace?

5. FOR THOSE WHO SAY ISRAEL IS ON SOMEONE ELSE'S LAND:

Noone on this planet has the ability to figure out whose it was since it just depends on when in history you look. At time of the creation of the State of Israel, it was British territory inhabited by Syrians, Arabs, and some Jews. It is useful to note here that Islamo-Fascists have a problem with non-Muslims living in ANY AND ALL land that was once Muslim, no matter long ago it was or for how long. Once Muslim, it must always be Muslim and those on it must convert or be killed.

Many Muslim nations in history had Jews living among them in peace. The people in Palestine were kicked off their land. The West Bank and the Gaza strip are lands that Israel stole when it started the 6 day war in 1967. The English promised the Arabs for their help in World War One, it is called the McMahon agreement. Then years later the English promised the land to the Jews under the Balfour declaration.

6. FOR THOSE WHO SAY ITS ABOUT CAPITALISM VS TRADITION

This is apples and oranges. WHAT IT IS about is our values vs theirs. If you value you freedom, you fight them. If you value women and civil rights, you fight them. If you value freedom of speech, you fight. them. And for its own defense, capitalsim has helped create the greatest, most free, and most generous country to ever have existed. It's not perfect, no one says it is, but it the best so far. And if we don't start treating it that way again soon, we will lower the bar and we will take this country there.

What are western divorce rates? What are western rape rates? What are western child molestation rapes. All considerably high than any Arab nation. So how can be pious and judge their values? Free Speech? only in a Bush approved zone. Perhaps you have missed the story of the teenager who had the FBI knock on his door for having a anti-Bush poster a few years ago.

Free countries existed before the United States. The ancient Greeks has a modern style government and a court system. Where do you think we got ours from?

I do think the United States is a great country and I am a Capitalist (a responsible one). I too fear what the future holds in the USA. The Patriot Act, Guantanamo Bay (Supreme Court has ruled military trails illegal). I am concerned about Bush's end runs around the Constitution with his use of signing statements. The American Bar Association has come out and said Bush is undermining the Constitution. Bush has used 800 signing statements, that is more than all the prior Presidents combined.

Notes:

1. This is not a war with all of Islam. It is a war with Islamo-Fascists. The head of which is Iran and Syria and their proxies- Hamas, Hezbollah and Al Qaida.

2. The west is weak-willed and uncertain of its righteousness thanks to the minions of the morally obfuscated. This is our weakness. It comes from within. To truly solve the problem, massive swift and brutal military action must be undertaken to overthrow and bury the regimes in Iran and Syria. If this is not done, we are fighting a cancer with local treatments and the prognosis is not good.

3. If the West did not rely on oil, and did not insist on fairly paying for it (as oppossed to simply occupying and taking it as they certainly could do) it is really funding its own enemy. Consider another front to this war is the quest for energy independence. And that potentially makes big oil a big enemy of its own country.

1. Iran and Syria are not the enemy, neither is Hamas or Hizbollah. Hamas and Hizbollah are both democratically elected Government parties. Hizbollah was formed in 1982 in response to Israel's invasion of Lebanon when Israel commited horrible war crimes and killed 2000 innocent men, woman, and children. Sharon was chastised by an Israeli commitee for it. Hizbollah builds hospitals, helps educated the Lebanese with schools, it helps them rebuild homes. Neither Hamas or Hizbollah have any interest in America. Al Qaida is the enemy, yet we seem to have forgotten that. We still haven't found Bin Laden, kind of tough when you have diverted your resources else where.

2. The west weak willed? Perhaps I have missed something, Bush has started two wars, far from weak willed. To question your Government is patriotic, in Communist societies you don't have this luxury, this is what separates us and you want to take it away? Blindly follow the party line? That is what got us Stalin and Mao.

American Governments never had a problem supporting Dictators with horrible human rights records if it suited itself. The Shah of Iran, Cheney wanted to give it nuclear weapons, today Iran is in compliance with the non-profileration treaty and their is no evidence that it is pursuing nuclear weapons. Nations in South America are doing the exact same thing as Iran and it doesn't make the news.

The CIA helped put Saddam in power. They gave him biological weapons (as seen on 60 minutes). Rumsfield and the gang helped finance Saddam during the 80's and shipped him weapons and they were aware of his human rights violations. The CIA put Pinochet in power overthrowing a democratically elected President and look what a monster Pinochet was.

The cancer is the politics of fear that Bush and his cronies use to control the masses. I would have considered myself a Republican before Bush. The politics of ideas is difficult, fear is easy. It is incumbent on the masses to fight the brain washing and the fear mongering and demand the politics of ideas from our leaders.

I'm tired. If I missed anything, I'll follow.

And a special note who think this country is evil or equivalent to Islamo-Fascists, go F yourself, I'll pay for your ticket to the Middle East. The situation is getting serious and you had better think long and hard about whose side your are really on. To those who are with me, whether a lot or a little, I'm glad you are voting for the 21st century.

America is a great nation. One which values free speech, they don't ship people who disagree off somewhere else. They only people who have a true land right in America are the native Indians or Aboriginals. Everyone else emigrated from some where else.

This idea of sides is divisive. I am on the side of honestly, the side of strength, the side of compassion. I am the side of diplomacy, the side of free speech. I am on the side of inclusiveness. I am on the side of acceptance. I am on the side of civil rights. I am on the side of the Consitution.

For those who are interested I have found an interesting Foriegn News Correspondent who writes for several papers. He is an American who served in the US military and fought in Vietnam. He is from New York, his father is Jewish and his mother is an Albanian Muslim. He lived in the Middle East for years. He has degrees from NYU, Georgetown University and the University of Geneva. He has an editor for the American Conservative Magazine. His name is Eric Margolis

http://www.ericmargolis.com/

[RAzOR]

The Crusades attacked and killed tons of Muslims. The war was started by the Christians. This isn't terror? Is it only terror when the attacker doesn't wear a uniform?

Civil rights in the west are currently under siege. We have no right to tell other nations how to live. Look at our crime rates, our rape rates, our divorce rates, our child molestation rates. Muslims are accountable to standards some much stricter than the west. See more below on other numbers.

Muslims believe Christ was a great prophet. Muslims follow Judaic law, it is where they get their strict laws from. Muslims, Christians and Jews are all people of the book. They all believe in the Old Testament. So we have shared values from a common source.

In case you forgot. WE were attacked first on 9-11. Preceded by the USS Cole, African Embassy bombings, and WTC 1993. We are not telling anyone how to live. They are trying to tell us or they will kill us. It is no more complex than this.

There are Facists on all sides. It was a Jewish man who killed Rabin.

This is irrelevant and useless. An American assasinated Lincoln. So what? American fascists are dangerous as well but they are not trying to kill us.

Israeli commanders have admitted this raid was planned before the kidnapping.

Israel has been kidnapping people from Lebanon for years and Hizbollah has asked for them back numerous times. Hizbollah gave advanced notice to Israel that if kidnapped Lebanese citizens were not returned, Israeli soldiers would be kidnapped. Israel kidnaps citizens, Hizbollah kidnaps soldiers. If Israel's goal was to get the soldiers returned alive bombing places they might be held will not achieve that goal. They may kill their own soldiers. So what is the reason for bombing civilian targets? To inflict pain and damage upon the Lebanese people. Israel can't kill women and children by the 100,000's. Then Syria, Iran would step into the fray. The UN would have to step in. Saudi would be under pressure from the Arab league to cut oil to America. So Israel can't do it. They are pushing the boundaries as far as they can currently.

When making a very bold statement like that, I hope you have some solid proof. It is known that Hezbollah would KIDNAP Israeli soliders for prisoner swaps. What happened in this case was that they were purused and Hezbollah killed eight Israeli soldiers in an ambush on the Lebanon side of the border. What, you think this is a cute little game of prisoner swap? You think this is fair? You're not that naive. Your points and reasoning are good. I know you don't think kidnapping Israeli soliders and killing eight of them in the process is just part of the "system" that was there.

The Stern and the Irgun used terrorism on the English. The Irgun bombed the King David Hotel. If Hizbollah lays down its weapons, Israel can continue to kidnap Lebanese citzens, occupy Southern Lebanon, divert water away from the Palestinians and continue to oppress them. This is peace?

Now let's think about this. What would it serve the country of Israel to kidnap Lebanese people? Since when did Hezbollah become the defenders of Lebanon? I thought Lebanon has its own army. And how does having 15,000 rockets on the border protect lebanses citizens?

Many Muslim nations in history had Jews living among them in peace. The people in Palestine were kicked off their land. The West Bank and the Gaza strip are lands that Israel stole when it started the 6 day war in 1967. The English promised the Arabs for their help in World War One, it is called the McMahon agreement. Then years later the English promised the land to the Jews under the Balfour declaration.

So? Again, a non-sequiter. There are tens of millions of Muslims living in peace in most parts of the world, alongside other people. Again, this is a war against the Islamo-Fascists, NOT with all of Islam and the Islamo-Fascists want it to be.

What are western divorce rates? What are western rape rates? What are western child molestation rapes. All considerably high than any Arab nation. So how can be pious and judge their values? Free Speech? only in a Bush approved zone. Perhaps you have missed the story of the teenager who had the FBI knock on his door for having a anti-Bush poster a few years ago.

Free countries existed before the United States. The ancient Greeks has a modern style government and a court system. Where do you think we got ours from?

I do think the United States is a great country and I am a Capitalist (a responsible one). I too fear what the future holds in the USA. The Patriot Act, Guantanamo Bay (Supreme Court has ruled military trails illegal). I am concerned about Bush's end runs around the Constitution with his use of signing statements. The American Bar Association has come out and said Bush is undermining the Constitution. Bush has used 800 signing statements, that is more than all the prior Presidents combined.

So what? We have to be angels to act at all? This is reality my friend. The world is far from perfect. If you'd like you can go live in Saudi Arabia and see how your push for women's rights goes there. As I mentioned in the post you are responding to, this is far from a perfect country, but it is the best thus far. And we must continue to work with it. You would rather work under Sharia law and the Ayatollah? You think that's better? I didn't think so. And I never said the US invented Democracy either. What is this rambling of yours? Sounds like a liberal college history professor's tirade.

1. Iran and Syria are not the enemy, neither is Hamas or Hizbollah. Hamas and Hizbollah are both democratically elected Government parties. Hizbollah was formed in 1982 in response to Israel's invasion of Lebanon when Israel commited horrible war crimes and killed 2000 innocent men, woman, and children. Sharon was chastised by an Israeli commitee for it. Hizbollah builds hospitals, helps educated the Lebanese with schools, it helps them rebuild homes. Neither Hamas or Hizbollah have any interest in America. Al Qaida is the enemy, yet we seem to have forgotten that. We still haven't found Bin Laden, kind of tough when you have diverted your resources else where.

Hezbollah gets 100 million $US in funding from Iran each year. You think they are independent of the radical religeous Tehran agenda? You think that Hezbollah needed 15,000 Iranian Kayusha rockets to help build hospitals? You think Lebanon needed 100,000 Syrian troops to help Hezbollah out? Gimme a break pal, I got some land in the middle east to sell you. Hezbollah, Hamas, and Al Qaida all get money from, are ideologically aligned with and are the proxy armies of Iran and Syria.

2. The west weak willed? Perhaps I have missed something, Bush has started two wars, far from weak willed. To question your Government is patriotic, in Communist societies you don't have this luxury, this is what separates us and you want to take it away? Blindly follow the party line? That is what got us Stalin and Mao.

Bush never "started" anything. Democracies by their very nature are weak as they are subject to the will of their people. I never said Bush was weak. I believe W is a very strong President. WIth Democracts, Sheehan, Murtha and the like clamoring for withdrawl , this does weaken our effort considerably. Yes, it is a good to question government, but try to impeach a sitting president in wartime, you had better have solid and serious violations. NONE of which has happened. Some wiretapping of foregin phone calls to foregin countries, searching phone records for calling patterns (not eavesdropping), tracking money, and secret prisons to interrogate combatants are all useful tools. I don't like them anymore than you, but they have helped us a great deal and to "blow the whistle on them" is aiding the enemy. Also, the whistle blowing, I am sure, was politically motivated. And lastly, are you saying anyone who supports the war is "towing the party line"? How about I turn this on you? I say, that just becasue you hate W soooo much, that you are opposed to war. The reasons for the war, such as 9-11, are irelevant. You hate Bush and that's that. Now is that coherent? No. So don't use it on me and waste my time and yours.

American Governments never had a problem supporting Dictators with horrible human rights records if it suited itself. The Shah of Iran, Cheney wanted to give it nuclear weapons, today Iran is in compliance with the non-profileration treaty and their is no evidence that it is pursuing nuclear weapons. Nations in South America are doing the exact same thing as Iran and it doesn't make the news.

The CIA helped put Saddam in power. They gave him biological weapons (as seen on 60 minutes). Rumsfield and the gang helped finance Saddam during the 80's and shipped him weapons and they were aware of his human rights violations. The CIA put Pinochet in power overthrowing a democratically elected President and look what a monster Pinochet was.

You remember a little something call The Cold War? There was a very serious situation with nearly 30,000 nuclear warheads aimed across the Earth. This was also a war. And that necessitates the actions you mention. You are sitting in the middle of Cinderalla's Castle at Disneyland and Monday Morning quarterbacking. And you think Iran is lying when it says it is actively pursuing a nuclear weapon? You do realize this right? They have openly and publicly stated they are pursuing a nuclear weapon. They say it is their soveregin right. You may want to try to broaden your news sources.

The cancer is the politics of fear that Bush and his cronies use to control the masses. I would have considered myself a Republican before Bush. The politics of ideas is difficult, fear is easy. It is incumbent on the masses to fight the brain washing and the fear mongering and demand the politics of ideas from our leaders.

The fear is real. You think World Trade Center did not happen? You think the terror cells arrested in Lodi, CA, Canada, and Florida were made up?

America is a great nation. One which values free speech, they don't ship people who disagree off somewhere else. They only people who have a true land right in America are the native Indians or Aboriginals. Everyone else emigrated from some where else.

This idea of sides is divisive. I am on the side of honestly, the side of strength, the side of compassion. I am the side of diplomacy, the side of free speech. I am on the side of inclusiveness. I am on the side of acceptance. I am on the side of civil rights. I am on the side of the Consitution.

It is a great nation. And "shipped off to somewhere else" shows your hand. You think political opponenets are "shipped off" in North Korea, Iran, Syria, and even China? If you pay any attention at all, you know that is the LEAST that would happen to them.

For those who are interested I have found an interesting Foriegn News Correspondent who writes for several papers. He is an American who served in the US military and fought in Vietnam. He is from New York, his father is Jewish and his mother is an Albanian Muslim. He lived in the Middle East for years. He has degrees from NYU, Georgetown University and the University of Geneva. He has an editor for the American Conservative Magazine. His name is Eric Margolis

http://www.ericmargolis.com/

I'll check him out.

Edited August 7, 2006 by RAzOR

[Zappo]

Zappo what about the KKK, It is a terrorist organization based on religious radicals.

KKK is racial. It isn't a specific religious sect attacking another. KKK members are most likely all Christian, but they could be atheist as well. KKK hates all non-whites, regardless of their religious affiliation.

[(n)A-GAME]

KKK is racial. It isn't a specific religious sect attacking another. KKK members are most likely all Christian, but they could be atheist as well. KKK hates all non-whites, regardless of their religious affiliation.

and catholics and jews....

[Guest 300+_T5R_855]

QUOTE(RAzOR @ Aug 7 2006, 02:10 AM)

I love how you skip over the points when it doesn't fit your position and roll out the propaganda.

It's the militaristic solution to everything that got us where we are. The idea that we can bomb them into submission is ludicrous. Attacks such as the USS Cole, WTC in '93 among others, should be dealt with as international crimes, and those who purpetrated them as international criminals. To wage war on nations where they have taken refuge is a bad precedent.

Hezbollah gets 100 million $US in funding from Iran each year. You think they are independent of the radical religeous Tehran agenda? You think that Hezbollah needed 15,000 Iranian Kayusha rockets to help build hospitals? You think Lebanon needed 100,000 Syrian troops to help Hezbollah out? Gimme a break pal, I got some land in the middle east to sell you. Hezbollah, Hamas, and Al Qaida all get money from, are ideologically aligned with and are the proxy armies of Iran and Syria.

Israel gets over 10 BILLION dollars in US Aid, mostly in military hardware. It isn't hard to figure out why we are where we are today.

Edited August 7, 2006 by 300+_T5R_855

[RAzOR]

I love how you skip over the points when it doesn't fit your position and roll out the propaganda.

It's the militaristic solution to everything that got us where we are. The idea that we can bomb them into submission is ludicrous. Attacks such as the USS Cole, WTC in '93 among others, should be dealt with as international crimes, and those who purpetrated them as international criminals. To wage war on nations where they have taken refuge is a bad precedent.

Israel gets over 10 BILLION dollars in US Aid, mostly in military hardware. It isn't hard to figure out why we are where we are today.

Oh yeah? So as long as they are in a nation of some sort, that's "safe" or "off limits"? So you would have suggested working the the Taliban to bring Al Qaida to justice since they operated out of the sovereign state of Afghanistan? GOOD ONE!

And what points did I "skip" over? Please let me know and I will address them.

Your point about Israel is factually correct, but I don't understand your point, "why we are where we are today." ?

Edited August 7, 2006 by RAzOR

[Guest 300+_T5R_855]

Oh yeah? So as long as they are in a nation of some sort, that's "safe" or "off limits"? So you would have suggested working the the Taliban to bring Al Qaida to justice since they operated out of the sovereign state of Afghanistan? GOOD ONE!

I never said they were off limits, but to attack nations because they have terroists amongst them is wrong headed. Afghanistan was justified in my opinion, but Iraq was not. After all we knew he WMD's, US corporations have the invoices to prove it.

And what points did I "skip" over? Please let me know and I will address them.

The Crusades attacked and killed tons of Muslims. The war was started by the Christians. This isn't terror? Is it only terror when the attacker doesn't wear a uniform?

Civil rights in the west are currently under siege. We have no right to tell other nations how to live. Look at our crime rates, our rape rates, our divorce rates, our child molestation rates. Muslims are accountable to standards some much stricter than the west. See more below on other numbers.

Muslims believe Christ was a great prophet. Muslims follow Judaic law, it is where they get their strict laws from. Muslims, Christians and Jews are all people of the book. They all believe in the Old Testament. So we have shared values from a common source.

In case you forgot. WE were attacked first on 9-11. Preceded by the USS Cole, African Embassy bombings, and WTC 1993. We are not telling anyone how to live. They are trying to tell us or they will kill us. It is no more complex than this.

You said the crusades killed no one on either side. This too is factually incorrect and your answer changes the subject.

Your point about Israel is factually correct, but I don't understand your point, "why we are where we are today." ?

Had we dealt with both parties equally and insisted on both an Israeli and Palestinian state from the get go we would have a more dignified position. Since we have totally backed Israel and virtually ignored the Palestinians plight we are hypocrites, and by arming the Israelis to the teeth we have shown our colors. Had we armed neither, they could throw rocks at one another. Over 50 UN resolutions against Israel, and no action by Israel or the US to resolve them, and yet the only UN resolution you hear about not being followed is the dis-arming of Hezbollah. This gives us little creedance to determine the outcome of their dispute.

Hamas was democratically elected and yet we choose to ignore that because we don't like that outcome. Just another example of how we truly speak out of both sides of our mouth.

Edited August 7, 2006 by 300+_T5R_855

[(n)A-GAME]

Had we dealt with both parties equally and insisted on both an Israeli and Palestinian state from the get go we would have a more dignified position.

just out of curiosity, what do you mean, "from the get-go"? From before Israel was a state that solution has been proposed and rejected!

The Peel Commission report of 1937 envisioned a partition of the British Mandate of Palestine area into three sections: Arab, Jewish, and a small continued Mandate area (effectively under international control), containing Jerusalem. The Arab leadership rejected the plan, while the Jewish leadership, while not accepting it, wished to use it as a basis for further negotiation.

The next major proposal to suggest a partition was the 1947 UN Partition plan for the division of Palestine. It also proposed a three-way division, again with Jerusalem held separately, under international control. It too was rejected by the leadership of Arab nations and the Palestinian leadership at the time, although this plan was accepted by the Jewish inhabitants.

[Guest 300+_T5R_855]

just out of curiosity, what do you mean, "from the get-go"? From before Israel was a state that solution has been proposed and rejected!

Simply from the time the US started to play a role, which was really post 1948. Trying to be a mediator with bias doesn't work.

I really do think that this might have all worked itself out on it's own since Jews were buying up this land in significant numbers from the early 1930's. Had they been left alone to continue to buy up the land they wanted, we might not be having this discussion.

Edited August 7, 2006 by 300+_T5R_855

[RAzOR]

I never said they were off limits, but to attack nations because they have terroists amongst them is wrong headed. Afghanistan was justified in my opinion, but Iraq was not. After all we knew he WMD's, US corporations have the invoices to prove it.

You are making an exception then, against your own argument with Afghanistan. We went into Iraq for different reasons. Suspected WMD's backed up by 17 UN Resolutions, and constantly impeded WMD inspections. Don't forget, Saddam had 14 months lead time to shuttle or scuttle the WMDs. And FYI, the US supplied Saddam to balance the region against Iran during the wars between them. Again, you are Monday Morning QB'ing.

You said the crusades killed no one on either side. This too is factually incorrect and your answer changes the subject.

I believe I said (but can't find it) "civilians". Regardless, applying something almost 800 years old is irrelevant to today. You (or someone else) brought up the Crusades as if it is an excuse for Islamo-Fascist behavior today. Sheesh.

Had we dealt with both parties equally and insisted on both an Israeli and Palestinian state from the get go we would have a more dignified position. Since we have totally backed Israel and virtually ignored the Palestinians plight we are hypocrites, and by arming the Israelis to the teeth we have shown our colors. Had we armed neither, they could throw rocks at one another. Over 50 UN resolutions against Israel, and no action by Israel or the US to resolve them, and yet the only UN resolution you hear about not being followed is the dis-arming of Hezbollah. This gives us little creedance to determine the outcome of their dispute.

The US supports many countries in the region. Turkey, Saudia Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait, and now Iraq (rather than just conquering then running). I don't see how supporting Israel (the only Democracy in the region) outweighs all this.

Hamas was democratically elected and yet we choose to ignore that because we don't like that outcome. Just another example of how we truly speak out of both sides of our mouth.

Hamas is a terrorist organization that would not renounce its policy of the complete annihaltion of the State of Israel. They, therefore cannot legitamately run the Palestinian State. This is why Abbas tried to hold onto power. The US dod nothing to intervene. Further, Arafat refused (at the last minute) to sign the Camp David accords brokered by Clinton which would have created the state of Palestine.

I think I have addressed your points.

Edited August 7, 2006 by RAzOR

[Guest 300+_T5R_855]

Hamas is a terrorist organization that would not renounce its policy of the complete annihaltion of the State of Israel. They, therefore cannot legitamately run the Palestinian State. This is why Abbas tried to hold onto power. The US dod nothing to intervene. Further, Arafat refused (at the last minute) to sign the Camp David accords brokered by Clinton which would have created the state of Palestine.

That doesn't mean they weren't democratically elected. They should have been recognized and forced to own up to their responsibility to the people that put them in power.

Arafat refused because it was a raw deal.

Someone else brought up the crusades. I was just pointing out your cavalier comment that no one was killed. sheesh

The US supports many countries in the region. Turkey, Saudia Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait, and now Iraq (rather than just conquering then running). I don't see how supporting Israel (the only Democracy in the region) outweighs all this.

Not nearly on the level we support Israel, and that answer still doesn't address the 50+ UN resolutions that Israel refuses to follow.

You are making an exception then, against your own argument with Afghanistan. We went into Iraq for different reasons. Suspected WMD's backed up by 17 UN Resolutions, and constantly impeded WMD inspections. Don't forget, Saddam had 14 months lead time to shuttle or scuttle the WMDs. And FYI, the US supplied Saddam to balance the region against Iran during the wars between them. Again, you are Monday Morning QB'ing.

If this was the case then why didn't we call it for what it was instead of using the threat of WMD's to invade? Which have never been found. Are they still hiding them..c'mon.

Stop supplying any of these aholes with weapons.

[RAzOR]

(I've switched to bold)

That doesn't mean they weren't democratically elected. They should have been recognized and forced to own up to their responsibility to the people that put them in power.

And who would force them to do this?

Arafat refused because it was a raw deal.

You don't know anything about the deal, do you?

Someone else brought up the crusades. I was just pointing out your cavalier comment that no one was killed. sheesh

Again, I never said noone was killed. I am not sure where your are getting this.

Not nearly on the level we support Israel, and that answer still doesn't address the 50+ UN resolutions that Israel refuses to follow.

We support Israel- a tiny, democratic, oil-less country with foreign aid AND we support their neighbors- oil rich, dictatorships with our oil dollars (creating some of the richest people on Earth) . Our differences are apprently fundamental. I believe Israel has a right to exist, you do not.

If this was the case then why didn't we call it for what it was instead of using the threat of WMD's to invade? Which have never been found. Are they still hiding them..c'mon.

Stop supplying any of these aholes with weapons.

We went in because Saddam had WMDs after the 91 war. He never showed proof that he destroyed them. He obstructed UN inspectors constantly. And he had known terrorists living in Baghdad (Abu Nidal). And the intelligence of most other countries indicated a high likelihood he had them. He had used them on Iranians and the Kurds. He also had 14 months to get them to Syria or elsewhere. Why do you not think this is possible? Treasonously, the Democrats have used the no-brain argument and constantly accuse that we were actually lied to and Saddam never had them. Even if he really didn't have them, "lie" ,means with intent to decieve. "wrong" means that one was incorrect. At the very worst, I believe Bush was wrong. Personally, I think Saddam got them to Syria in the 14 months leading up to our invasion while we screwed around in the UN.

Edited August 7, 2006 by RAzOR

[Guest 300+_T5R_855]

(I've switched to bold)

That doesn't mean they weren't democratically elected. They should have been recognized and forced to own up to their responsibility to the people that put them in power.

And who would force them to do this?

I don't have an answer for this, but we cannot simply pick and choose the democratically elected we like and claim we believe in democracy at the same time.

Arafat refused because it was a raw deal.

You don't know anything about the deal, do you?

I do know that they were denied access to a port and control over their fresh water supply. That sounds like a raw deal to me.

Someone else brought up the crusades. I was just pointing out your cavalier comment that no one was killed. sheesh

Again, I never said noone was killed. I am not sure where your are getting this.

My mistake, you said

THIS IS, of course, wrong. The crusades were not terror, not on either side.

I guess this depends if you are on the receiving end or not.

Not nearly on the level we support Israel, and that answer still doesn't address the 50+ UN resolutions that Israel refuses to follow.

We support Israel- a tiny, democratic, oil-less country with foreign aid AND we support their neighbors- oil rich, dictatorships with our oil dollars (creating some of the richest people on Earth) . Our differences are apprently fundamental. I believe Israel has a right to exist, you do not.

Simply not true, but I do believe they should be held to the same standards we hold all others too, or expect of others. We simply turn a blind eye to their human rights violations because we believe the Palestinians are less than human.

If this was the case then why didn't we call it for what it was instead of using the threat of WMD's to invade? Which have never been found. Are they still hiding them..c'mon.

Stop supplying any of these aholes with weapons.

We went in because Saddam had WMDs after the 91 war. He never showed proof that he destroyed them. He obstructed UN inspectors constantly. And he had known terrorists living in Baghdad (Abu Nidal). And the intelligence of most other countries indicated a high likelihood he had them. He had used them on Iranians and the Kurds. He also had 14 months to get them to Syria or elsewhere. Why do you not think this is possible? Treasonously, the Democrats have used the no-brain argument and constantly accuse that we were actually lied to and Saddam never had them. Even if he really didn't have them, "lie" ,means with intent to decieve. "wrong" means that one was incorrect. At the very worst, I believe Bush was wrong. Personally, I think Saddam got them to Syria in the 14 months leading up to our invasion while we screwed around in the UN.

I believe the Bush administration lied, decieved, or misled the public to wage war on Iraq. Use english however you want, whether or not Bush knew or was misled by his staff we went to war on false premise. If he had those weapons it was nobody's fault but our own for providing them to him. Once we learn that if you sleep with dog's you will get fleas, we as a nation will be far better off. You cannot chose the worst of two evils to partner with and say you are taking the moral high ground because it is to defeat a percieved or real enemy. This is not good foreign policy which has been lacking in the US for decades. Osama in Afghanastan because we didn't want the Russians to win. Hussein in Iraq because we don't like Iran. When will we learn?