Afghanistan, Iraq, And The War On Terrorism

[USMC850T]

well here it is. our very own thread.

[Plan_B]

I think we should just pack up and leave, no need to rebuild what we destroyed, simply leave.

Edited October 28, 2006 by Plan B

[///RonalT5]

Right War, right ententions, wrong place... There have been so many inocent Iraqies killed, it is astonishing. And to think that our presient is calling it a sucess, it is distguisting. I have no idea what we should do, I think we should just leave and let them figure it out for themselves. Democracy will not work in a country like Iraq, and people are so stupid they don't realize it. This debate will get me flustered, haha.

~Mike

[Plan_B]

My only opinion is that we should help rebuild. It's jsut annoying that the US has borrowed so much money for this war that we could use to help out people in the US. That's all I have to say about this war. My earlier post was jsut to get things rolling in this thread, I do not believe we should just leave and not rebuild.

[USMC850T]

That would certainly be nice wouldn't it. I think it was Colin Powell that said if you break it, you've gotta fix it. It's kinda the same situation as post WWII Europe with the Marshall plan. If we pump the money and effort into it we can ensure that a government friendly to US will survive.

[USMC850T]

Our armed forces go to every length possible to ensure that non combatants aren't harmed. Unfortunately, the insurgency uses them for cover so that US forces cannot engage them. It's quite cowardly, but Evolve, I hope you're not under the impression that they are just running around and killing everything that moves over there.

[Plan_B]

Our armed forces go to every length possible to ensure that non combatants aren't harmed. Unfortunately, the insurgency uses them for cover so that US forces cannot engage them. It's quite cowardly, but Evolve, I hope you're not under the impression that they are just running around and killing everything that moves over there.

I don't think he is that stupid, I have been worng before though :)

[bmcintyre]

That would certainly be nice wouldn't it. I think it was Colin Powell that said if you break it, you've gotta fix it. It's kinda the same situation as post WWII Europe with the Marshall plan. If we pump the money and effort into it we can ensure that a government friendly to US will survive.

Rebuilding now is really our only choice. When people are starving/homeless/terrified they naturally turn to idealogical "saviors" for inspiration and relief from their woes. If we fix the damn place then at least there is some chance that the countries won't completely turn to fanatacism. While I personally don't like the fact that our men and women are dying/being maimed over there....now that we're in we're in

B

[///RonalT5]

B)-->

QUOTE(Plan B @ Oct 28 2006, 07:34 PM) ←

I don't think he is that stupid, I have been worng before though

No, I am not stupid, haha. And some of the people do shoot just for the hell of it USM850T. Some of the soldiers aren't the brightest people, and they do mistreat the people. Some torture them and massacre them, like the one in the news a couple months ago where the U.S. slaughtered innocent people in a village, including children. That does happen. Some soldiers are like that. I do agree with reconstruction, but a democratic government will not work. When has it worked, forcing dem. on a forgein country. Who knows, mayb I am wrong, but the religious groups won't work together as democrazy should. I just think that we should put more emphasis on he Iraqies doing it, not the troops. Also, we can't keep putting 2 billion dollars into the war a week. And what is it with the republican's platform of not taxing, where is that money going to come from?

~mike

[starfish]

--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Plan B @ Oct 28 2006, 07:34 PM) ←</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think he is that stupid, I have been worng before though

No, I am not stupid, haha. And what is it with the republican's platform of not taxing, where is that money going to come from?

~mike

From the steep rise in tax revenues from corporations and the wealthy which is driving down the budget deficit this year, even though spending has climbed because of new entitlements(Bush's worst mistake), the war in Iraq and the cost of hurricane relief. The White House officials announced that the tax receipts will be about $250 billion above last year's levels and that the deficit will be about $100 billion less than what they projected six months ago. The rising tide in tax payments has been building for months, making it easier for both the administration and Congress to finesse the big run-up in spending over the past year. Tax revenues are climbing twice as fast as the Bush administration predicted early this year, so fast that the budget deficit could actually decline this year. The main reason is a big spike in corporate tax receipts, which have nearly tripled since 2003, as well as what appears to be a big rise in individual taxes on stock market profits and executive bonuses. Another reason is the alternative minimum tax collection scam invented in the 70's to capture a few of the top non-payers of federal income tax that over the course of time has entraped millions Everytime a tax-cut has been implemented the revenues collected has gone up. Everytime a tax increase has been implemented the revenues declined. We need to make the Bush tax-cut permanent.

This is a new type of war where we have seen young men, women and children strap bombs to themselves and cause mass casualties. Believe me, nobody wants to be in that God-forsaken hellhole one second more than needed. What we don't want to do is to turn that area over to Iran, Syria or al-Qaeda. Could you imagine the funding made available from all of the oil money over there for terrorist training, and producing weapons of terror that any of those groups could unleash on America if we just up and left? We need to finish this the right way and if it includes gettin ugly well then so be it! The liberals have us playing "be nice" to these freakin terrorists which has extended this campaign. It's time to put up a battle like they have never seen before and end their ability to terrorize their new government which would cause these and other despots around the globe to rethink getting in the cross-hairs of the US Military ever again! We should start by ending the whole Hussein trial crapola and off him, al-Sadr and his militia.

[///RonalT5]

Quote:

as well as what appears to be a big rise in individual taxes on stock market profits and executive bonuses.

I do agree with that, but there should be a higher tax on the top 1% of America. Taxing middle America is not right. Most of the wealthy wouldn't care if we taxed them, unless they were selfish. On the Iraq War thing, I do agree with you that we need to be harsh on terrorists, but 'terrorists' is such a broad definition, that it is hard to tell one from another. We are fighting a war with a blindfold on, which isn't our fault, it is just the way the terrorists fight. And you forget one thing my friend, we started this by having a base in Saudi Arabia put there by bush senior. This pissed Osama, and he asked us to get it out, and did Bush, NO. This is why he is soooooo pissed at us and how he was able to get religious extremists to fight us. He only got backed up when we invaded Iraq. The terrorists should be destroyed, but we first need to understand how the problem began.

~Mike

[starfish]

Quote:

as well as what appears to be a big rise in individual taxes on stock market profits and executive bonuses.

I do agree with that, but there should be a higher tax on the top 1% of America. Taxing middle America is not right. Most of the wealthy wouldn't care if we taxed them, unless they were selfish. On the Iraq War thing, I do agree with you that we need to be harsh on terrorists, but 'terrorists' is such a broad definition, that it is hard to tell one from another. We are fighting a war with a blindfold on, which isn't our fault, it is just the way the terrorists fight. And you forget one thing my friend, we started this by having a base in Saudi Arabia put there by bush senior. This pissed Osama, and he asked us to get it out, and did Bush, NO. This is why he is soooooo pissed at us and how he was able to get religious extremists to fight us. He only got backed up when we invaded Iraq. The terrorists should be destroyed, but we first need to understand how the problem began.

~Mike

Mike I'm not trying to insult you but perhaps we should find someone to start a thread on economics and I might be able to help set the record straight because you really have no idea. Your knowledge of the war on terror, Bin Laden, or just about anything is often so far from the truth I wonder if you make this stuff up? Although your beliefs are shared with your anti-American liberal friends who blame us for all that is wrong in life it is a bunch of nonsense. You really should be questioning them first than to get pissed at me when I tell you that liberalism is a mental disorder. Stick around though, one day you will understand.

Regards, starfish

http://www.thewednesdayreport.com/twr/bin_laden.htm#history

[///RonalT5]

Mike I'm not trying to insult you but perhaps we should find someone to start a thread on economics and I might be able to help set the record straight because you really have no idea. Your knowledge of the war on terror, Bin Laden, or just about anything is often so far from the truth I wonder if you make this stuff up? Although your beliefs are shared with your anti-American liberal friends who blame us for all that is wrong in life it is a bunch of nonsense. You really should be questioning them first than to get pissed at me when I tell you that liberalism is a mental disorder. Stick around though, one day you will understand.

Regards, starfish

http://www.thewednesdayreport.com/twr/bin_laden.htm#history

HAAHAHAHAHAHA, you just shot yourself on the foot!!! If you actually read the site you just linked, you would see that Bin Laden was pissed at the U.S. invading Saudi Arabia with our f*(king military base. And you know why that military base is there, wait, did you also know that the largest un-tapped oil supply is right off the coast of our base? Why would we have a base there, disrupting there religious beliefs? Maybe you are arrogant and think that America can do whatever we want, but you're wrong. There are other people in the world other than us, and we are not always right. And how can you tell me my info on Bin Laden is false? You should really read the stuff you link...

QUOTES:

"Bin Laden signed and issued a Declaration of Jihad outlining his organization's goals: drive US forces from the Arabian Peninsula, overthrow the Government of Saudi Arabia, liberate Muslim holy sites, and support Islamic revolutionary groups around the world. He declares that Saudis have the right to strike at US troops in the Persian Gulf."

^^^See why he is pissed off...

QUOTE:

CNN airs an interview with bin Laden in which he criticizes US "occupation of the land of the holy places."

^^^Maybe you are blind to see.

QUOTE:

US troops fight Persian Gulf War. After victory, the US establishes a large permanent military presence in the region, including Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is the land of "the two most holy places" in Islam--Mecca and Medina.

^^^And who did that, NONE OTHER THAN BUSH SENIOR!!!

You are so wrong it is hilarious. He turned on us when we invaded their holy land after the Gulf War. Did you watch "In The Footsteps Of Bin Laden" on CNN? Probably not. So before you actually acuse someone of being wrong, make sure you are right. And by the way, take your conservative, oil wanting, arrogant, holy-land invading cronies, and actually open your eyes to the rest of the world and stop thinking that you are always right, CAUSE YOU'RE NOT!!! Maybe after 100,000 people die in Iraq , you will see (American troops I mean, we have already killed twice that number in innocent Iraqi citizens.

~Mike

[ArmyINFDoc]

All i will contribute is that i liked our foreign policy pre-world war I.

[USMC850T]

Evolve, we do not change our foriegn policy because radical fundimentalist moslems disagree with it. The base in Saudi Arabia was set up during operation desert shield, the precursor to ODS. It was put there because the Saudi's wanted us there. Believe it or not we are actually allies with them, and the base certainly helped them out during ODS. It's really wierd how putting a US military base inside your borders tends to discourage your neighbors from fucking with you.

This is from the global security site regarding why they were there, and their removal in 2002.

"Since 1980, the two nations have had an agreement in which four American AWACS surveillance planes and three aerial tankers had operated from Riyadh, and successive U.S. administrations in the 1980s and 1990s sold Saudis arms, including AWACs.

Troops welcomed in '90

U.S. forces flooded into Saudi Arabia in fall 1990, after Hussein's troops invaded Kuwait. Saudi Arabia welcomed the troops, and its own forces fought to push Iraq out of Kuwait.

After the war, about 4,000 uniformed Americans--mostly Air Force members--stayed in Saudi Arabia as part of the no-fly patrol operations, and as a check against further Iraqi offensives"

By and large the saudi's had no problem with US being there, it was the fundimentalists which disliked our presence and thought we had no place in the Arab Peninsula.

Now evolve you keep mentioning all these innocent Iraqi's dying, where do you get these figures from? Move on.org?? I would be willing to bet that more Iraqi's have been killed or injured from the IED attacks, and the insurgency car bombs and market bombs than were hurt during the war.

Also, do you know why there was a no fly zone in the north of Iraq for 7 years? Ever hear of the Kurds? Approximately 200,000 were killed by saddam through gas attacks, the destruction of towns and cities, and mass excecution from 1987-89. Immediately following ODS Saddam went right back to it until the NFZ was enforced. Where is your sympathy for these people? I have a feeling you haven't a clue who they are at all. Evolve, you have a tough time arguing because you lack a fundimental understanding of history. I assume you are just really young, which is why all you can come up with is "but were killing innocent people....". Do you have any idea how many non combattants were killed during WWII? Europe was leveled! I can't tell you enough how discriminant we are when it comes to targeting and engauging our enemies. We go to extreme lengths to ensure noncombattants are not injured. During the actual war, Saddam parked his mobile SAM radars and launchers next to schools to protect them from our weapons. Did we blow their shit up?? you bet, but we would do it at night, or during lunch hour when the school was vacant (everyone goes home to eat). He also liked to park his tanks in neighborhoods, using his own innocent civilians as protection. Instead of using an incindeary bomb to kill the tanks, we started taking GBU's (guided bomb units) and removing the explosive part. This was replaced with cast concrete pieces. Jets would then drop these "kenetic" energy bombs, which were really just guided pieces of concrete onto the tanks. They would hit the tank with enough force to kill it, and break the concrete into small pieces, thus eliminating danger to anyone who was not standing in it's immediate viscininty.

These are just two examples that I could think of off the top of my head. It's unfortunate that we have incidents like Haaditha, but they are certainly highly uncommon.

Edited October 29, 2006 by USMC850T