Military Calls For Rumsfeld's Resignation

[Greenchunks]

He seems like a very good candidate to say the least.

At least he admits we are losing the war.

[///RonalT5]

At least he admits we are losing the war.

Ya, and USMC still thinks we are winning... DR admitted a couple of days ago that his way wasn't working, and now all of Washington is admitting that we are failing, funny thing how all the conservatives said we are winning, BUT WE AREN'T!!!

~Mike

[Zappo]

DR admitted a couple of days ago that his way wasn't working, and now all of Washington is admitting that we are failing, funny thing how all the conservatives said we are winning, BUT WE AREN'T!!!

Most conservatives were merely repeating what the White House was putting out.

Edited December 8, 2006 by Zappo

[starfish]

Ya, and USMC still thinks we are winning... DR admitted a couple of days ago that his way wasn't working, and now all of Washington is admitting that we are failing, funny thing how all the conservatives said we are winning, BUT WE AREN'T!!!

~Mike

So what is your plan to win or are you just willing to chalk one up in the loss column?

[Zappo]

Actually, we did win. The goal was to topple Sadam's government and bring him to trial. Mission accomplished. That was the first war. The second war was the one Bush never expected to be a war, cleaning up the Sadam loyalists and insurgents. That is the war that isn't being won, although I can't say we are losing either. If the country falling into civil war is losing, then yes, we are losing.

[USMC850T]

Evolve i guess you forgot what happened in may of 2003, or maybe you were to young to remember. There is absolutely no question that we have won. Look around, do you see ANY aspect of Saddams regime still in place? The US forces also smashed the record for the fastest advance during thunder run. The postwar period of occupation has become far more ambigous, as is typical with 4th generation warfare. If you're interested in reading about that at all, look for an author named Lind. Reading his articles will definately give you a better understanding of what 4GW entails, and will give you a better understanding of why we "are loosing" as some say. I feel the situation is becoming dangerously out of hand. We have done almost everything to give the Iraqi's the tools they need to succeed. The failure or success of the Iraqi state will ultimately be determined by their new government and the populace. There are positives coming out of Iraq, jjust look north. The Kurds have managed to secure most of northern Iraq and are doing quite well up there. I'm sure they are quite glad to no longer be governed by president hussien.

Has anyone read through the Iraq study group's report? The begginning details the problems and complications fairly well i feel. I was quite turned off by it though when i read that that '...the problems we face in iraq the manifestation of our Israeli / palistinian policies..

[///RonalT5]

Evolve i guess you forgot what happened in may of 2003, or maybe you were to young to remember. There is absolutely no question that we have won. Look around, do you see ANY aspect of Saddams regime still in place? The US forces also smashed the record for the fastest advance during thunder run. The postwar period of occupation has become far more ambigous, as is typical with 4th generation warfare. If you're interested in reading about that at all, look for an author named Lind. Reading his articles will definately give you a better understanding of what 4GW entails, and will give you a better understanding of why we "are loosing" as some say. I feel the situation is becoming dangerously out of hand. We have done almost everything to give the Iraqi's the tools they need to succeed. The failure or success of the Iraqi state will ultimately be determined by their new government and the populace. There are positives coming out of Iraq, jjust look north. The Kurds have managed to secure most of northern Iraq and are doing quite well up there. I'm sure they are quite glad to no longer be governed by president hussien.

Has anyone read through the Iraq study group's report? The begginning details the problems and complications fairly well i feel. I was quite turned off by it though when i read that that '...the problems we face in iraq the manifestation of our Israeli / palistinian policies..

Yes I was there in May 2003, and our objective was nothing CLOSE to Saddam smarty. Our main objective was to get Osama, which I was ok with, and then all of a sudden, we turn to Saddam and the ASSUMPTION that he has 'weapons' of mass destruction and that he was funding extremists. That is completely retarded. Saddam hated extremists because it posed a threat to his regime and would have them executed. Our goal was not Saddam, just another redirecting of our goals by your great F'ing government. We went from Osoma, to Saddam, back to extremists, then to a democratic government, to protecting oil from the extremists. In the begining, did we even consder turning Iraq into a democratic government...NOOOO!!!?!?!?! Even Rummy said his way was failing, but if you want to be a retard and follow the views of the USMC without quesitoning the authority, go ahead. I have no solution goes we are so F U C K E D, we do not know where to start.

~Mike

P.S. Do YOU remember this moment in history?

Don't even begin to say the war was a success, when even now the Presdent is aditting that it isn't going as he planned. That is a disgrace to our country.

[USMC850T]

Ok you're missing my point. I said may of 2003, which was a year and a half after afghanistan but good reading comprehension on your part non the less. We did win the war. There is not debatable in the least. What part of Baathist former Iraq is still existing today as it did in may of 2003? I'll admit our occupation is not going well and getting worse by the days. You don't have the slightest clue why this is happening, which is why you cannot contribute any type of suggestions or solutions, making you just as worthless to the problem as all the other bitching whining bring the troops home idiots.

Secondly, we don't start wars based on assumptions. Our intelligence services, along with the majority of the worlds intel, came to the exact same conclusions.

Saddam hated extremists because it posed a threat to his regime and would have them executed.

Retarted, baseless, wrong, and irrelavent.

We went from Osoma, to Saddam, back to extremists, then to a democratic government, to protecting oil from the extremists.

Incomprehensible babbling. I don't have a fucking clue what it is you're talking about.

In the begining, did we even consder turning Iraq into a democratic government...NOOOO!!!?!?!?!

Of course we did. Were we going to turn it over to another totalitarian figure and let it turn into the same situation w/ saddam? A democracy smack dab in the heart of the middle east is undeniably in our best interest.

Even Rummy said his way was failing, but if you want to be a retard and follow the views of the USMC without quesitoning the authority

The Marine Corps, along with every other branch has no official political views, so I cannot possibly be following their position, because it does not exist. The armed services do not formulate policy, only execute it. By the way im still on school and have a semester left before i would go back to ocs, so im not in the MC yet, so please stop making references to me being stupid or dumb because i have an association with the Marine Corps. You are some little shit in high school eating up everything his teacher has to say and getting your news from moveon.org, I am a semester away from a degree in political science and intel analysis, so trust me, I'm not dumb by any stretch. You would also be suprised at just how educated and intelligent the officer corps is, especially the field grade officers. But go ahead and be cool....QUESTION ATHORITY MAAAN!!!1!!1

And since when does a war not going as planned make it a disgrace?? The planners did not anticipate the insurgency to develop as it did, but that's not a disgrace by any means. I mean I can't think of a single war in all of history that went down as planned. Have you never heard of murphy's law??

[Greenchunks]

Ok you're missing my point. I said may of 2003, which was a year and a half after afghanistan but good reading comprehension on your part non the less. We did win the war. There is not debatable in the least. What part of Baathist former Iraq is still existing today as it did in may of 2003? I'll admit our occupation is not going well and getting worse by the days. You don't have the slightest clue why this is happening, which is why you cannot contribute any type of suggestions or solutions, making you just as worthless to the problem as all the other bitching whining bring the troops home idiots.

Secondly, we don't start wars based on assumptions. Our intelligence services, along with the majority of the worlds intel, came to the exact same conclusions.

Retarted, baseless, wrong, and irrelavent.

Incomprehensible babbling. I don't have a poking clue what it is you're talking about.

Of course we did. Were we going to turn it over to another totalitarian figure and let it turn into the same situation w/ saddam? A democracy smack dab in the heart of the middle east is undeniably in our best interest.

The Marine Corps, along with every other branch has no official political views, so I cannot possibly be following their position, because it does not exist. The armed services do not formulate policy, only execute it. By the way im still on school and have a semester left before i would go back to ocs, so im not in the MC yet, so please stop making references to me being stupid or dumb because i have an association with the Marine Corps. You are some little stuff in high school eating up everything his teacher has to say and getting your news from moveon.org, I am a semester away from a degree in political science and intel analysis, so trust me, I'm not dumb by any stretch. You would also be suprised at just how educated and intelligent the officer corps is, especially the field grade officers. But go ahead and be cool....QUESTION ATHORITY MAAAN!!!1!!1

And since when does a war not going as planned make it a disgrace?? The planners did not anticipate the insurgency to develop as it did, but that's not a disgrace by any means. I mean I can't think of a single war in all of history that went down as planned. Have you never heard of murphy's law??

Ok, I'll bite, but only because I really dont want to study for my finals.

1. Baath party members still are very present in Iraq, albeit they are not the ruling party, they still exist and they still have some say in the government and are still a political party in Iraq.

2. Yes our occupation is not going well, and I do have many clues as to why, I too am a political science major, and I focused in terrorism, and the middle east, so yes I know. We have created a perfect place where any and every terrorist can both attack the USA, and vie for power of a country that has no leadership. There is much more to be said on it, but I dont want to spend that much time.

3. The fact that someone cannot supply a solution does not make them an idiot, the fact that they are willing to not blindly follow what they are told, and to have the audacity to question things is good. While it gets annoying sometimes, it is needed. And furthermore, while bringing all the troops home right now will not help things, neither will refusing to formulate any sort of exit strategy.

4. Our intel did not exactly come to the conclusions of the rest of the world, people challenged it and questioned it, but they were silenced, or in some cases, their significant others get exposed as being spies and their lives ruined. Also, many have testified saying that they were told to not say things that contradicted what they president wanted to hear. We clear start wars based on assumptions, we started the Vietnam war on the assumption that letting Vietnam fall to a communist regime would make us look weak to the soviets and therefore we must keep it from happening. Hey that war turnbed out great too!

5. What Mike was referring to with his ill-written sentence was that the goals of going into iraq have changed a lot. First it was because Saddam had WMD's and was trying to make more, yellow cake anyone? Then it was that Saddam needed to be removed because he was a horrible person. Then it was that we were prevent terrorism. Multiple reports have been released explicitly stating that Saddam has no ties to Al-Qaeda, anyone who has studied the region would know that Al-Qaeda was a very religious based group, and Saddam was not tolerant of religious groups, so the two being together would not make sense. Now the war is about establishing democracy.

6. You can't honestly say that the marine corps has no position. You're jsut repeating a bunch of babbling BS you've been told. While the MC doesnt make official press releases stating their positions and opinions, clearly the higher ups in the MC have their own opinions and since they make a lot of the decisions, their opinions are reflected in their decisions. Additionally, those who join the MC are more likely to havea certain political affiliation and certain beliefs about foreign policy, so one can very easily make claims about the MC's position,

7. Wow, a semester away from a DEGREE IN POLITICAL SCIENCE!!!!! Wow, that's soo poking hard to get, the amount of complete morons here at Cal who are going to be getting degree's in Poli Sci is astounding. I'll have a degree in PoliSci and Econ in a semester, whoop de doo! That makes you marginally more qualified to discuss things than jsut about anyone with a brain. The degree means very little, other than you can take some classes.

8. What makes it a disgrace is the refusal to admit that anything is going wrong until it is soo far gone that we can't do anythign about it. The current presidency would rather be Strong and Wrong, instead of changing their minds, admitting they were wrong, potentially looking weak and being correct in the end. What makes it a disgrace is that we still have almost no people in the intelligence community who speak arabic, and even fewer who speak Farsi (should we go into Iran). What makes it a disgrace is the government and military's complete refusal to learn about the cultures that we are fighting against. Still you see the marine storming into houses in Iraq yelling in ENGLISH for people to get down and not move. These people dont know what the monkey their saying, we really have no idea about how these people live and that is part of the key reason that we are having such a hard time doing anythign in Iraq. Perhaps if we learned more before we went in, we would have seen how poking hard and impossible these people are to teach anything.

That's all for now, I'm out.

[///RonalT5]

^^^UBER PWNAGE!!! USMC, you need to get a brain and actually see that the war is failing. And it is true what I am saying, Saddam hated religious extremists and had them executed. If I am not mistaken, Saddam was part of the conservatve group and his political advesaries were extremists and other religious people. GUess what, he had them murdered. Don't think ur all cool cause you have a degree in politcal science, great accomplishment. And so what if I am in high school and actually get what is going on in the world, you don't like being told ur wrong from a 17 year old? And the USMC does not have a political view? That is the biggest joke of the century. People join because they are for the war, the reserve is for people who don't really have or opinion or hwo just wanted their education paid for. My uncle is in the reserves, and he is 50. He got sent over to Iraq and he said it was a total mess. People did not know what they were doing, they had no armor on their vehicles, he was scarred every F'ing day he was over there. Your president is a complete retard because he won't admit he is wrong, a similar trait for texans.

And another thing, all of your 'come-backs' are wrong too.

1) Saddam did kill the extremists cause he hated religion and it's threat to his regime

2) Our first objective was Osama, then it went to 'WMD,' to we need to avenge the kurds and people who saddam hurt, then to making Iraq a democracy, then to figting extremists, then (most recently) to protecting the OIL FIELDS!!!

3) A demoracy smack dab in the ME would lead to a complete take over by Iran retard. A crippled country, Iraq has 0% of becomming a democracy. The parties would assasinate each other. And a main principle of democracy is a seperation of church and state. HOW DO YOU THINK THAT IS POSSIBLE?!?!?! You are even dumber if you think that it is possible. Over there, everything is based on religion, so democracy will not work.

4) The USMC does blindly follow authority. You question an order, you get punished. If you wanna shave your head, be brain-dead and follow orders from someone above you your whole life, go right ahead, then maybe you will understand.

Bottom line is that we are failing and it is an uphill battle that will never stop. We have dug this whole soooooo deep, not democrats or republicans know how to end it. We can't keep fighting because the hate for us will go so deep. But our president doesn't care, he wants to 'stay the course.' The F'ing retard needs to admit when he is wrong, but he wont, only all his advisors tell him he is wron, but he silences them. USMC, you need question authority a little more dude, don't be brainwashed by a neo-conservative who wants to strap you with a M-16 and go fight a non-winnable war.

~Mike

[Greenchunks]

I am not as big of a hippy as that guy ^

[///RonalT5]

I am not as big of a hippy as that guy ^

I am not a hippy. I don't like hippies much more than conservatives, just a moderate who thinks our president and his policies are F'ing retarded.

~Mike

[starfish]

So what is your plan to win or are you just willing to chalk one up in the loss column?

Bump

[///RonalT5]

Bump

Honestly, I have no freakin idea bro. I think we need to try something different at least, cuase the current way ain't working so good. How about this, I will try to formulate an exit strategy after I am done with finals in a week.

~Mike

[USMC850T]

1. Baath party members still are very present in Iraq, albeit they are not the ruling party, they still exist and they still have some say in the government and are still a political party in Iraq.

One of the reasons why the government is weak now is because it has been de baathified, and there are few people presently in the government with the kind of experience they had. They were the ruling party and knew how to run the government. They really don't have a major presence in the current government, are are faaar more prevalent in the Sunni Insurgency.

2. Yes our occupation is not going well, and I do have many clues as to why, I too am a political science major, and I focused in terrorism, and the middle east, so yes I know. We have created a perfect place where any and every terrorist can both attack the USA, and vie for power of a country that has no leadership. There is much more to be said on it, but I dont want to spend that much time.

I agree with that for the most part. I don't feel that it is as close to an al qaeda playground as the pundits make it out to be though. The Sunni insurgency and al aqaeda have a kind of mututally beneficial relationship going, however al Qaeda is definately hated by the shiite millitias. And what better place to engauge al Qaeda than on foriegn soil, and against our military instead of our population centers?

6. You can't honestly say that the marine corps has no position. You're jsut repeating a bunch of babbling BS you've been told. While the MC doesnt make official press releases stating their positions and opinions, clearly the higher ups in the MC have their own opinions and since they make a lot of the decisions, their opinions are reflected in their decisions. Additionally, those who join the MC are more likely to havea certain political affiliation and certain beliefs about foreign policy, so one can very easily make claims about the MC's position

Ok again the entire United States armed forces have no official political views. At the highest levels, the JCOS, they do advise the President about capabilities and courses of action. This is different from expressing offical political views. The military tries to be an entirely apolitical orginization, since they exist solely to execute the policy courses deceided by civillian policy makers (congress & prez). Also, the enlisted ranks of the forces are almost always more liberal in their own personal ideology than the officer corps, which tends to lean conservative.

7. Wow, a semester away from a DEGREE IN POLITICAL SCIENCE!!!!! Wow, that's soo fucking hard to get, the amount of complete morons here at Cal who are going to be getting degree's in Poli Sci is astounding. I'll have a degree in PoliSci and Econ in a semester, whoop de doo! That makes you marginally more qualified to discuss things than jsut about anyone with a brain. The degree means very little, other than you can take some classes.

I mentioned that because i have been repetitively called dumb by a 17 year old who cannot form complete & coherent sentances. Just because I take a different point of view, or am persuing a career in the military does not mean that for some reason i am stupid. I have taken plenty of courses and read plenty of the literature on the subject we are discussion to formulate my own views, and none of it has come from the military.

. What makes it a disgrace is the refusal to admit that anything is going wrong until it is soo far gone that we can't do anythign about it. The current presidency would rather be Strong and Wrong, instead of changing their minds, admitting they were wrong, potentially looking weak and being correct in the end. What makes it a disgrace is that we still have almost no people in the intelligence community who speak arabic, and even fewer who speak Farsi (should we go into Iran). What makes it a disgrace is the government and military's complete refusal to learn about the cultures that we are fighting against. Still you see the marine storming into houses in Iraq yelling in ENGLISH for people to get down and not move. These people dont know what the fuck their saying, we really have no idea about how these people live and that is part of the key reason that we are having such a hard time doing anythign in Iraq. Perhaps if we learned more before we went in, we would have seen how fucking hard and impossible these people are to teach anything.

More arabic speaking intel officers and translators will only help things, I agree, which is why t hey are recruiting heavily for those talents.

As far as the raids are considered, most of the soldiers and Marines that have been there for any length of time know some arabic for exactly those situations you are describing. The Marine Corps has made efforts to improve what they call "cultural intellegence". Before a deployment they will take classes in the local culture and some arabic. In the town of Hattin, the local commander has religous leaders from the town teaching his troops arabic on a regular basis.

4) The USMC does blindly follow authority. You question an order, you get punished. If you wanna shave your head, be brain-dead and follow orders from someone above you your whole life, go right ahead, then maybe you will understand.

Nobody blindly follows athority. There are such things as illegal orders, those which would force someone to break the geneva conventions, or other treaties which govern the conduct of war. The military does rely on discipline and obedience to orders, but look at what their job is. Without discipline, would they be able to accomplish anything?? And do you think that you somehow won't have someone telling you what to do in the civillian world? Ever hear of a boss or manager? Challenge their authority and you may find yourself unemployed.

I will be commissined as an officer, so I will be doing most of the issuing of orders, but of course I will be having people tell me what to do too. I didn't decide i wanted to join for money - If that's what i wanted I would have joined the army. I didn't join because I wanted to go to Iraq either, I honestly wouldn't mind though. I joined because I am going to strap an F-18 on my back and rain fire on the enemies of the United States. I have always wanted to fly, and I can think of no greater challenge in aviation than being a military pilot. There are a lot of people in the Armed forces who did not join for college money, they just want to serve their country. Too bad that seems to be a declining trend these days.

3) A demoracy smack dab in the ME would lead to a complete take over by Iran retard. A crippled country, Iraq has 0% of becomming a democracy. The parties would assasinate each other. And a main principle of democracy is a seperation of church and state. HOW DO YOU THINK THAT IS POSSIBLE?!?!?!

Iran would invade a US backed iraqi democracy?? I don't think so. Not unless they wanted to sacrafice every single piece of military hardware that crossed into Iraq. While the US military is not best suited in dealing with insurgency or guerilla threats, they are undeniably the best in the world at force on force encouters, which is exactly what an Iranian invasion of a democratic Iraq would involve.

Honestly, I have no freakin idea bro. I think we need to try something different at least, cuase the current way ain't working so good. How about this, I will try to formulate an exit strategy after I am done with finals in a week.

~Mike

I think you should instead focus on a solution to the problem, rather than how or when we should get out.