Okay, So How Phucked Are We Right Now?

[Yellow95]

Decline :/ http://www.cbpp.org/7-12-05bud.htm

I knew you leaned to the left. Damn, I should be a profiler.

Gary

[Jena]

B.) Everyone is worried about mexicans... why there have always been mexicans? Blacks were the first mexicans, Chinese, europeans everyone was cheap labor when they immigrated origionally. People complain that "they took our jobs" yeah but they keep our economy competitive with the world market... it's either mexicans in the U.S. or chinese or india overseas doing work.

I'm not sure I agree with this statement at all.

As far as black people go, it's not like they came here 'took our jobs' pocketed a lot of untaxed money to send back to their homeland to fund bringing more of them over here to work jobs we don't want for money they don't pay taxes on.

I'm failing to see how you can relate the two. And for that matter, the Chinese, Europeans, etc as well. I also don't see how they are keeping our economy competitive, please explain.

The way I see it, they need to stop coming here... period. We need to deport all the ones that are here (illegally) back to wherever they came from, put up a massive boarder control, and only let back in those that have gone through proper channels to become US citizens. I don't have issues with anyone being an American, what I do have issues with however, is thousands of illegal aliens not paying taxes.

If they're going to be here, live on American soil, work American jobs, then they should pay American taxes... and speak English.

[gdizzle]

I'm not sure I agree with this statement at all.

As far as black people go, it's not like they came here 'took our jobs' pocketed a lot of untaxed money to send back to their homeland to fund bringing more of them over here to work jobs we don't want for money they don't pay taxes on.

I'm failing to see how you can relate the two. And for that matter, the Chinese, Europeans, etc as well. I also don't see how they are keeping our economy competitive, please explain.

The way I see it, they need to stop coming here... period. We need to deport all the ones that are here (illegally) back to wherever they came from, put up a massive boarder control, and only let back in those that have gone through proper channels to become US citizens. I don't have issues with anyone being an American, what I do have issues with however, is thousands of illegal aliens not paying taxes.

If they're going to be here, live on American soil, work American jobs, then they should pay American taxes... and speak English.

:)

[Zulu]

I knew you leaned to the left. Damn, I should be a profiler.

Gary

Must be all the backing up with facts that gave it away and how was that link left!?

Edited July 30, 2007 by ZuluKingCrowned

[c70turbo5]

I'm not sure I agree with this statement at all.

As far as black people go, it's not like they came here 'took our jobs' pocketed a lot of untaxed money to send back to their homeland to fund bringing more of them over here to work jobs we don't want for money they don't pay taxes on.

I'm failing to see how you can relate the two. And for that matter, the Chinese, Europeans, etc as well. I also don't see how they are keeping our economy competitive, please explain.

The way I see it, they need to stop coming here... period. We need to deport all the ones that are here (illegally) back to wherever they came from, put up a massive boarder control, and only let back in those that have gone through proper channels to become US citizens. I don't have issues with anyone being an American, what I do have issues with however, is thousands of illegal aliens not paying taxes.

If they're going to be here, live on American soil, work American jobs, then they should pay American taxes... and speak English.

all i was sayin is that we were all immigrants in a crappy place and our predecessors wanted to go somwhere better to make a good life. and honestly If a mexican that jumped a fence and barely speaks english comes and takes my job. then there is somethin wrong with me.

and i'll explain the economic theory behind the competitive economy:

Lets say there are no cheap mexican workers, only u.s citizens that are required by law to have insurance, a certain wage, vacation etc... what this does is drive up the cost of manufacturing any givin product. As a result more people have more money because there are more entry level jobs and more people getting paid. Although this same effect causes price inflation due to the higher cost of manufaturing and the increased demand (supply curve doesn't change.) although we can control some of this inflation by implementing various monetary fiscal policies by lowering interest rates and things like that. but the only problem is that incoming travel decreases because of the inflated prices along with exports. what this also will do is increase American spending in other countries we will travel more and spend our money where the exchange rate is beneficial. which equals less in U.S. circulation leading to not just a decline in our international economy but also our domestic.

Economics is all theory, this is just my analysis of it. all i say is that we balance things out and don't forget everyone is human. Honestly the trade-off for increased violence due to the low income people coming in through our borders is a very understandable thing to be upset about. I think a better solution than making a "taller fence" is how can we help our neighbors have a strong government and economy with as little corruption as possible? that way there would be no reason to come to America for any reason but travel.

Edited July 30, 2007 by c70turbo5

[bottlecap]

yay for long posts...

I feel the government is gonna go extremely liberal after this presidency. Not liberal bashing, just saying its gonna go on the extreme side of things.

not going to happen. the democratic party is pretty much the same as the republican party. the only difference is that they don't have to pander to the religious right. they pretend to pander to progressives instead, but don't deliver any results. you won't see any kind of expansive social programs or renovation of our society, or infrastructure. nobody has the vision for it. the function of our gov't has pretty much been reduced to making corperate america and foreign investors as much money as possible while keeping the rest of us scared, distracted, and "happy."

Global warming... most we can do is educate our kids, so they can furthor our attempts to save the earth in the future besides reducing carbon emission. I had a manager that thought H20 emissions on a hydrogen car was a greenhouse gas.

we need a real and honest debate about global warming. is it happening? yes. what we need to be debating is if we had anything to do with it, and if we can do anything to change it, and if we should change it. lots of evidence suggests that co2 has nothing to do with warming. that's why temperature increases before co2 levels historically, and is also why not a single researcher has yet to account for the water cycle. why not? because we don't yet understand the entire water cycle. until we do all the global warming models are pretty much useless.

Here are a couple of questions for the liberals, progressives, socialists, communists, dumdocrats and the like I'd like answers to.

1. Focusing on paying off government debt will personally get me where?

2. Electing government officials who are not actively invoking spending cuts will increase what for me?

3. Not funding the military in war time against a brutal undistracted determined enemy will make me what?

4. What effect on me as the consumer and/or the overall economy have by raising taxes?

Where in the article that "theForgottenone" linked to is there a mention or chart of revenue growth or decline after the Bush tax cut.

1. it will get you continued credit and it will maintain the economy on which your life depends. at the very least, it will help those pieces of paper and the little digital numbers you call money maintain their purchasing power, and will continue to attract investment to the united states. most of all though, it'll mean we won't be completely screwed when people decide we owe them enough money and they're not giving us anymore.

2. real gov't services. what do you get for the taxes you pay now? pretty much nothing. i dunno about you, but the roads i drive on suck, there aren't enough police, the fire dept. is underfunded, the electric grid is falling apart, sewers are also falling apart. etc etc etc. i have no problem paying taxes. i just want to actually get something from the gov't in return. if i could i'd give my tax dollars to a gov't that would actually supply my demands, but it doesn't work like that.

3. it'll make you not stupid. there is no reason what-so-ever we need to be spending as much on this war as we are. we have more resources, better trained and more numerous troops. why the can't we spend as much or less money then "the terrorists?" i'm sorry, but hunting down a bunch of guys in cities and caves should not cost the u.s. military billions of dollars. we're smarter (or should be). this isn't like were fighting the russians or something... we're fighting guys in caves. CAVES! and people in cities all over the world who are in sleeper cells, and aren't going to be found or dealt with by the military anyway.

4. high taxes can be good for the economy. bill clinton raised them without a problem. it all depends on what you tax and how you spend that money.

The way I see it, they need to stop coming here... period. We need to deport all the ones that are here (illegally) back to wherever they came from, put up a massive boarder control, and only let back in those that have gone through proper channels to become US citizens. I don't have issues with anyone being an American, what I do have issues with however, is thousands of illegal aliens not paying taxes.

If they're going to be here, live on American soil, work American jobs, then they should pay American taxes... and speak English.

most illegals do pay taxes. they cannot get a job without false documentation, which means they get taxed. the funny thing is they do not get their taxes back like you and me, because if they file the return, they'll get deported. they also cannot claim benefits for the taxes they pay (unemployment, ss, etc.).

and they do not take american's jobs. that's just silly. they work jobs americans do not want to do. and if you should desire to work as a janitor at the city bus terminal, you shouldn't have any problem getting hired over a mexican. you got an education in this country for free, you know the culture because you've lived here all your life and not just a monht, and you also speak english. if you can't get that job over a mexican, it is not the mexican's fault. it's yours.

people in india and china take jobs away from americans. they take manufacturing jobs, they take design and software jobs, etc, etc, etc. they are not taking our janitorial work.

and the u.s. should not have an official language. stop being a xenophobic bigot. what's it matter if we have more than one language in this country? plenty of other nations speak upwards of 10 different languages. if spanish makes you uncomfortable, deal with it. and maybe take heart in the fact that mexicans, like every immigrant population before them, speak mostly english by the third generation.

-mike

[ACBarnett]

I'm a pretty hardcore conservative when it comes to the economy and other financial issues. I'm not as worried about the growing gap between rich and poor, at least as a result of the government. I think what we're seeing is capitalism running it's course, and those who want to be wealthy and have enough common sense to know how to do it are moving into that top "richest people" group. Many people seem to think only of the billionaires when they hear of the "richest growing richer" and forget that that group also includes the upper middle class, people earning ~175k a year and higher. One look at the housing prices in any of the prosperous cities in and around the coasts, not to mention the fact that they are still selling to see that that increase in wealth has alot to do with a growing upper middle class.

This is important because while it's near impossible for the average american to end up a billionaire within a lifetime, it's far, far easier to end up comfortably upper middle class. I think what we're seeing is society stratifying itself into the people who are comfortable as-is and just living their lives, AKA the middle class, and the people who aim to acquire material wealth, who become the upper middle and upper classes.

I think the best way to fix or aid this issue is to give people more of a level playing field as far as the resources at their disposal. This means financing things like the public schools and libraries while dropping the tuition at state colleges and universities. This way we have solutions that help everyone without being handouts targeted at certain groups, and it still leaves the final decisions about what to do with their life in the hands of the individual.

On the topic of immigration and the border, I say let them in and make it easier for them to become legitimate citizens so that they are paying taxes to support the services that they use. At least up here in MA the poor central american immigrants easily the hardest working of the poor groups, and I have no doubt that within 20 years they will be just another integrated group like the italians, irish, and other european immigrants did a hundred years ago.

At the same time I think we need to give the indigent, multi-generational poor within our own borders a kick in their proverbial buts so they can at least move up into the working class. Id love to see a proposal to link the welfare payouts of families with school-age children to the academic attendance and performance of those children. I think we'd suddenly see alot more parents becoming interested in their children's school careers. I'd love to combine it with something as simple as making community college tuition free or greatly reduced to residents of the county that the colleges serve so that welfare payments continue to families with children who are in college and doing well, to offset even the small school costs that they might have. I think it would do wonders and could break the cycle of urban poverty within a generation or two. A nice little catch however would be a mandatory depo shot to every able-bodied woman who is receiving public assistance of any kind. If you are unable to support yourself or your family on your own, there is no reason why you should be having any more children, period. If you want to have more kids you're free to go off the dole and pop them out till your heart's content, but don't expect the taxpayers to subsidize one bit of it.

I'm all for non-polluting energy, and I'd love to see more nuclear, hydroelectric, solar, and wind power installations as well as a meaningful effort on the part of the US government to work towards commercial fusion power with the rest of the world. I think we should also work towards increasing the part that ethanol and biodiesel play in our fuel scheme, but there is no reason why we can't develop commercial ethanol and biodiesel plantations in places like africa where it would both be cheaper to us, while also helping to give that region a cash crop and something to base the economy off of. Other than that I don't have much to say other than that we should have had the CIA carry out a coup in iraq placing an america-friendly general in power if we wanted an influence in that region, and that "the war against terror" while it seemed to be valid in 2001, now seems like a pathetic attempt at creating fear over an enemy that we will never really beat until islam reforms itself from within.

[prasamin]

I'm in India right now. You have it good, believe me. But, we're catching up very quickly. I picked "conquered"

[Yellow95]

Must be all the backing up with facts that gave it away and how was that link left!?

Beats me. I didnt click on it. I am not about to cloud my judgement with ridiculous things like FACTS. I would be banned from VS for life.

Gary

[Jena]

most illegals do pay taxes. they cannot get a job without false documentation, which means they get taxed. the funny thing is they do not get their taxes back like you and me, because if they file the return, they'll get deported. they also cannot claim benefits for the taxes they pay (unemployment, ss, etc.).

people in india and china take jobs away from americans. they take manufacturing jobs, they take design and software jobs, etc, etc, etc. they are not taking our janitorial work.

and the u.s. should not have an official language. stop being a xenophobic bigot. what's it matter if we have more than one language in this country? plenty of other nations speak upwards of 10 different languages. if spanish makes you uncomfortable, deal with it. and maybe take heart in the fact that mexicans, like every immigrant population before them, speak mostly english by the third generation.

-mike

I never considered the "no job with out false documentation" point. It's a nice one. Thank you. That would be a lot of money, wouldn't it? All these illegal aliens paying taxes but not claiming returns. I wonder where it's going. And... do you honestly think that there are no illegal aliens working under the table?

So the Americans are letting the Mexicans have our janitorial work, but not letting the people in India and China have our design/software/manufacturing jobs... those are being taken from us. Got it.

I really don't think I'm being a bigot... and I don't take kindly to being called one. Spanish doesn't make me uncomfortable, neither does French, German, etc... I'm in awe of people who speak more than just one language, I still get confused speaking just one. "plenty of other nations speak upwards of 10 different languages." Yep, your right. And if every individual state in our nation spoke a different language, the same would be true for us as well.

[c70turbo5]

I never considered the "no job with out false documentation" point. It's a nice one. Thank you. That would be a lot of money, wouldn't it? All these illegal aliens paying taxes but not claiming returns. I wonder where it's going. And... do you honestly think that there are no illegal aliens working under the table?

So the Americans are letting the Mexicans have our janitorial work, but not letting the people in India and China have our design/software/manufacturing jobs... those are being taken from us. Got it.

I really don't think I'm being a bigot... and I don't take kindly to being called one. Spanish doesn't make me uncomfortable, neither does French, German, etc... I'm in awe of people who speak more than just one language, I still get confused speaking just one. "plenty of other nations speak upwards of 10 different languages." Yep, your right. And if every individual state in our nation spoke a different language, the same would be true for us as well.

The whole india thing is balancing out. Companies have realized how high the turnover rate is with these jobs in india and it's costing them a lot of money to re-train these people . Margin is getting smaller and smaller.

and yea there are aliens working under the table... just go to home depot in the morning, sound stereotypical but they are seriously just sitting in front of it hoping someone will give them work. But they still have to pay sales tax on everything they buy. and they can't go on welfare. I really can't see a huge void with the missing income tax.

Read into international trade. in a nutshell a big company has a manufacturing company overseas, they create a shell company in a place like grand cayman (a place with very very low sales tax if any ) then purchase the product with that company for a fixed price, lets say $20 per unit. (they pay tax for the country of origion and pay a small % to the country they are buying to. then the main company in the U.S. basically buys it from themselves but for a lower price, lets say $9 per unit. as a result paying extremely lower taxes than importing them directly from the manufacturer.

The tax evasion from this practice is a lot higher $$$ amount than low income mexicans not paying income tax. But international law, loopholes, and a government in favor of big business allow this trade to work. I'm not saying it's a bad thing though, it's just business

[RAzOR]

I'm a pretty hardcore conservative when it comes to the economy and other financial issues. I'm not as worried about the growing gap between rich and poor, at least as a result of the government. I think what we're seeing is capitalism running it's course, and those who want to be wealthy and have enough common sense to know how to do it are moving into that top "richest people" group. Many people seem to think only of the billionaires when they hear of the "richest growing richer" and forget that that group also includes the upper middle class, people earning ~175k a year and higher. One look at the housing prices in any of the prosperous cities in and around the coasts, not to mention the fact that they are still selling to see that that increase in wealth has alot to do with a growing upper middle class.

This is important because while it's near impossible for the average american to end up a billionaire within a lifetime, it's far, far easier to end up comfortably upper middle class. I think what we're seeing is society stratifying itself into the people who are comfortable as-is and just living their lives, AKA the middle class, and the people who aim to acquire material wealth, who become the upper middle and upper classes.

I think the best way to fix or aid this issue is to give people more of a level playing field as far as the resources at their disposal. This means financing things like the public schools and libraries while dropping the tuition at state colleges and universities. This way we have solutions that help everyone without being handouts targeted at certain groups, and it still leaves the final decisions about what to do with their life in the hands of the individual.

On the topic of immigration and the border, I say let them in and make it easier for them to become legitimate citizens so that they are paying taxes to support the services that they use. At least up here in MA the poor central american immigrants easily the hardest working of the poor groups, and I have no doubt that within 20 years they will be just another integrated group like the italians, irish, and other european immigrants did a hundred years ago.

At the same time I think we need to give the indigent, multi-generational poor within our own borders a kick in their proverbial buts so they can at least move up into the working class. Id love to see a proposal to link the welfare payouts of families with school-age children to the academic attendance and performance of those children. I think we'd suddenly see alot more parents becoming interested in their children's school careers. I'd love to combine it with something as simple as making community college tuition free or greatly reduced to residents of the county that the colleges serve so that welfare payments continue to families with children who are in college and doing well, to offset even the small school costs that they might have. I think it would do wonders and could break the cycle of urban poverty within a generation or two. A nice little catch however would be a mandatory depo shot to every able-bodied woman who is receiving public assistance of any kind. If you are unable to support yourself or your family on your own, there is no reason why you should be having any more children, period. If you want to have more kids you're free to go off the dole and pop them out till your heart's content, but don't expect the taxpayers to subsidize one bit of it.

I'm all for non-polluting energy, and I'd love to see more nuclear, hydroelectric, solar, and wind power installations as well as a meaningful effort on the part of the US government to work towards commercial fusion power with the rest of the world. I think we should also work towards increasing the part that ethanol and biodiesel play in our fuel scheme, but there is no reason why we can't develop commercial ethanol and biodiesel plantations in places like africa where it would both be cheaper to us, while also helping to give that region a cash crop and something to base the economy off of. Other than that I don't have much to say other than that we should have had the CIA carry out a coup in iraq placing an america-friendly general in power if we wanted an influence in that region, and that "the war against terror" while it seemed to be valid in 2001, now seems like a pathetic attempt at creating fear over an enemy that we will never really beat until islam reforms itself from within.

Long, but +10. Though you forgot to mention tight border security.

[RAzOR]

I'm not sure I agree with this statement at all.

As far as black people go, it's not like they came here 'took our jobs' pocketed a lot of untaxed money to send back to their homeland to fund bringing more of them over here to work jobs we don't want for money they don't pay taxes on.

I'm failing to see how you can relate the two. And for that matter, the Chinese, Europeans, etc as well. I also don't see how they are keeping our economy competitive, please explain.

The way I see it, they need to stop coming here... period. We need to deport all the ones that are here (illegally) back to wherever they came from, put up a massive boarder control, and only let back in those that have gone through proper channels to become US citizens. I don't have issues with anyone being an American, what I do have issues with however, is thousands of illegal aliens not paying taxes.

If they're going to be here, live on American soil, work American jobs, then they should pay American taxes... and speak English.

Jena,

I agree with you on everything but the deportation. It's just not realistic. Additionally, the US desperately needs an infusion (albeit of official, legal immigrants) to help with our birthrate, relative morality, and labor force. What should happen is the border gets clamped down and a 90 day window of registration for all illegals here to apply for legal status and go through the proper review procedure. After the 90 day window, if you are here illegally, deporation fast and simple.

Steven

[ACBarnett]

Jena,

I agree with you on everything but the deportation. It's just not realistic. Additionally, the US desperately needs an infusion (albeit of official, legal immigrants) to help with our birthrate, relative morality, and labor force. What should happen is the border gets clamped down and a 90 day window of registration for all illegals here to apply for legal status and go through the proper review procedure. After the 90 day window, if you are here illegally, deporation fast and simple.

Steven

ding ding ding we have a winner

There should be more border security than we have right now, but also it should be alot easier to naturalize and become an american citizen. Like it or not this country is made up of nothing but immigrants, and nothing is more hypocritical than the idea that this is the land of the free and the home of the brave, but only if you happen to have been born here.

I'd ad a few months to the 90-day amnesty period, and go about systematically deporting any immigrant with a serious criminal record, those people we most definitely DO NOT need.

And as someone of latin-american descent, I hate the idea of a bi-lingual america. We will always be a predominantly english speaking country, and we're condemning immigrants to a life as second-class citizens by teaching them anything but english. Like the many immigrant groups before them, their language will be able to live on in their homes and be taught by their families while they learn english at school so that they can integrate and function with the rest of society.

[Zulu]

Beats me. I didnt click on it. I am not about to cloud my judgement with ridiculous things like FACTS. I would be banned from VS for life.

Gary

haha true. And nice, bottlecap...great to see some sense here.