Cost Of War

[ErikS]

I'm just... speechless.

My personal opinion is... that is the dumbest crap I have ever heard.

It is your forum.

[USMC850T]

1. Experienced Air traffic controllers saw what they said resembled Military Aircraft maneuvers, NOT those of a 757 and said they all thought it was a military fighter plane. Air Traffic Controllers like Sybil Edmonds have been threatened and gagged from speaking out.

Airliners are capable of turing at several G's. Also, there is an FAA regulation "speed limit" of 250mph under 10,000ft in effect for noise control. This might make anything making abrupt turns and traveling in excess of this speed limit seem like a military aircraft.

2. Blackbox Altitude analyzed by Pilots for 9/11 turth (founded by a pilot with 20 + years experience), at the time of impact was 479 feet, not low enough to impact light poles and obviously not low enough to hit the building where it supposedly hit. They requested further information and the NTSB declined stating "what you have is what you have".

Blackboxes read absolute altitudes, based off sea level. They are also linked to the instruments, which often times have corrections for barimetric pressure. Do you think terrorists were worried about compensating for pressure changes as they were flying?

3. There is also DOT footage for the nearby highway that would have clearly shown the supposed 757 that hit, Govt. won't release it.

A nearby highway camera shooting at 2-3HZ should be pretty effective at capturing a nice image of a 500mph airliner, shouldn't it!.

4. Ground effects, (AKA the laws of physics and commercial aircraft design), make it impossible for a 757 to fly over 500MPH a couple feet off the ground as claimed, even any experienced aviation expert agrees. Again, watch the video about it.

The ground effect doesn't have a goddamn thing to do with flying jets within feet of the ground. The person who made this video, and yourself, have no idea what the ground effect is, and what it does to a jet.

5. Look at the video, in the link. If you can see you'll see something being shot from a jet and a streak, which is what was likely a missile.

Watch the video again, without the mushrooms. All I see is a fucking blob on a security camera video. Luckily, that blob was outlined into the shape of a fighter jet and missile, so that I would infer that there was some massive government conspiracy behind the 757 crash at the pentagon.

6. Commercial aviation experts have studied the size and type of plane the wreckage came from, these are people who have experience studying crash photos. the size of the wreckage is inconsistant for a Boeing 757

Not sure how many crash photos they had to study showing a 757 impacting a very, very heavily fortified structure. Also not sure who has qualified them as "Comercial aviation experts" but whatever.

I mean come on, get real. Even if this was somehow not true, we have missile defense systems that could have taken an approaching 757 out. These systems were designed to intercept faster moving fighter jets and incoming missiles so explain why they weren't used? Let me guess, you are one of those nuts that claim "We just didn't have anything like that".

Prior to that day, terrorism of this manner was based on the threat of actual violence, rather than the random application of violence, as we saw on 9/11. This is why if you tried to convince anyone on september 10th that shooting down a hijacked airliner was a reasonable thing to do they would probably have punched you. Today, there might be some weight to that argument.

Also, I'm not that familiar with the actual flight path of the aircraft. Presumably if it was headed straight for the pentagon for quite some time, they would have had some warning. This is where the above argument may have been hastily discussed. Also, keep in mind, if the jet was below a certain altitude, it would not be visible on radar.

[Guest 850T-5]

Blackboxes read absolute altitudes, based off sea level. They are also linked to the instruments, which often times have corrections for barimetric pressure

You assume experienced commercial airline pilots with 20+ years experienced didn't adjust for barimetric pressure, they did. Again, watch Pilots for 9/11 Truth Pandora's Black Box and they'll explain. Better yet contact them via their website, they'll explain.

The ground effect doesn't have a goddamn thing to do with flying jets within feet of the ground.

You are insane, a 757 in tests by Boeing has been proven to not be able to fly very well at 500+ MPH below 50 feet. It is called turbulence / air pressure underneath the plane. It might have somewhat flown at best but would have been very difficult to control especially for an alleged terrorist that couldn't even fly a Cesna by all accounts of his instructors.

Airliners are capable of turing at several G's. Also, there is an FAA regulation "speed limit" of 250mph under 10,000ft in effect for noise control. This might make anything making abrupt turns and traveling in excess of this speed limit seem like a military aircraft.

uh, again, you don't think experienced professionals know this. this is not what they were seeing.

A nearby highway camera shooting at 2-3HZ should be pretty effective at capturing a nice image of a 500mph airliner, shouldn't it!.

uh, a plane as large and as close as the 757 would have been, there would have been some frame showing this. flying that low it would have just about covered the entire view of the overpass.

Not sure how many crash photos they had to study showing a 757 impacting a very, very heavily fortified structure. Also not sure who has qualified them as "Comercial aviation experts" but whatever.

uh, large jetliners have slammed into the side of mountains, large tail sections, luggage, clothes, seats were all found at these crash sites. not quite the same but still. People like, Major General Albert "Bert" N. Stubblebine III was the commanding general of the United States Army Intelligence and Security Command from 1981 to 1984, when he retired from the Army. He is known for his interest in parapsychology and was a strong supporter of the Stargate Project. I think he would know something.

hahahah, dumbest crap ever heard. I thought it was all pretty dumb too at first until I started learning more and more and doing more and more research on my own. More people would figure out what is really going on if they opened their eyes and did the same. that's fine but why not disprove the overwhelming evidence out there with facts rather than just dismissing it as dumb crap like a junior high schooler

People act like it is not possible for Governments to commit or assist in acts of terror to further agendas although it has been happening for years, even ours. Again, look at Operation Northwoods, a 1962 document drafted by our own Pentagon to blowup our own jetliners and blame it Cuba as a pretext for war. Look at PNAC, the neo-conservative thinktank that called for a "New Pearl Harbor", a catalyizing event. They didn't mean it, still just dumb crap right?

Also visit http://www.patriotsquestion911.com where even ex military officials, govt. officials, scientists, phd's all question 9/11. I also highly recommend watching 9/11 Road To Tyranny for anyone that needs to catch up on what's been going on.

[USMC850T]

You assume experienced commercial airline pilots with 20+ years experienced didn't adjust for barimetric pressure, they did. Again, watch Pilots for 9/11 Truth Pandora's Black Box and they'll explain. Better yet contact them via their website, they'll explain.

Experienced pilots were not flying the plane into the side of the pentagon, terrorists were. I would be willing to guess that from the point where the plane was hijacked, which could have been in a totally different weather area, no adjustment was made.

You are insane, a 757 in tests by Boeing has been proven to not be able to fly very well at 500+ MPH below 50 feet. It is called turbulence / air pressure. It might have somewhat flown at best but would have been difficult to control especially for an alleged terrorist that couldn't even fly a Cesna by all accounts of his instructors.

I'm not insane, you just have no idea what you're talking about, and are simply repeating something you read somewhere and believed. Tests by boeing show it not being able to fly very well at 50 feet??? It's called turbulence / air pressure????? Don't think so. A 757 would not be any harder to fly down low than any other aircraft. Also, flying in close proximity to the ground, it is quite turbulent. This is something that affects all aircraft. A big airliner like a 757 is going to be affected by this to a much smaller degree than small aircraft, and in no way is this turbulence insurmountable, or tantamount proof that the government conspired to shoot missiles into the pentagon.

For your own information, the ground effect is a phenomenon which acts as a kind of pillow, or cushion, between an aircraft and the ground. It's also something that an aircraft needs to be very close to the ground to notice, especially aircraft with high gross weights relative to their wing area (also known as high wing loading). An aircraft as heavy as a 757 (with a lot of fuel on board) traveling at 500 mph has a fuck-ton of energy, and is going to be relatively unaffected by the ground effect at 50 feet, since it would an extremely weak force relative to the momentum of the aircraft.

uh, again, you don't think experienced professionals know this. this is not what they were seeing.

Well then, I'm not quite sure what they would have been seeing (and I know you don't know what they saw that made them things this way), cause having some experience with this, when I think of the way a military jet would appear on a radar screen, I would think about high speeds, and abrupt turns. Again it's conceivable for a terrorist fly a plane, fly slowly and smoothly like a commercial pilot is supposed to. In fact, they would probably leave the throttle to the stop and make hard turns rather than flying with the finesse that a seasoned airline pilot would. Again if you cannot tell me why this unnamed ATC thought flight 77 was a military plane, you cannot really disprove anything i've said.

uh, a plane as large and as close as the 757 would have been, there would have been some frame showing this. flying that low it would have just about covered the entire view of the overpass.

you're assuming the highway department has some nice high quality cameras setup shooting 29.97fps mpeg video, when in actuality, they are low quality, low FPS cameras.

The whole 9/11 conspiracy is incredibly thin.

For instance:

-the ATC saying that flight 77 appeared to be making military maneuvers, therefore it must have been a military aircraft with rockets

-the ground effect and turbulence prove beyond a doubt that a plane cannot possibly fly as low as 50 feet and remain in control (your fact-packed video claimed "a 757 flying this low would likely flip due to the ground effect" - which is a statement clearly crafted by some shit-for brains tin hat wearing moron whom cannot possibly have any aviation experience, and most certainly not basing that statement on FACTS

850 T-5 : please watch this video. It was crafted by the government to make us believe that jets can in fact fly low and remain in control: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69DXf5_hB3c

and here's another with a 757 low pass followed by a military like steep climb

[Guest 850T-5]

hahaha, ok. aviation experts don't know what they're talking about and you do. no one said they couldn't do a low fly pass but a Boeing 757 was not designed to fly a couple feet off the ground at over 500MPH, the ground effect (that pillow) of air and turbulance underneath the plane (yes I know what it is) you refer to would keep pushing the plane up and make it unstable. That Airbus certainly isn't traveling at 500+ MPH, which is the speed combined with flying a couple feet off the ground in question and certainly not 2 feet of the ground.

You are calling the facts and the overwhelming evidence to the contrary incredibly thin? You want to know what "is" incredibly thin? the countless holes in the flawed official story. maybe try researching and figuring things out for yourself.

Let's try a different approach. How about this. let's say, just say it wasn't an inside job, didn't happen although the overwhelming evidence shows this

Why was the countless intelligence from the Clinton to the Bush administration ignored? I have an entire list of these countless documented warnings, too much to even list because it would flood this topic.

There was even documented intelligence provided by several foreign Governments warning of an attack being planned specifically for Sept. 11th and was going to be in the form of flying planes into buildings?

Instead, rather than having our military on guard, we have planes that could have intercepted to prevent more lost lives, diverted in drills that just conincidentally took place that day with many of our fighters unarmed and diverted all over the place. By the time the fighters that were on standby on the ground were allowed to leave it was too late.

This was especially intolerable for our country's military headquarters to be left wide open on this day given these warnings. Additionally, the claim that we just didn't have any anti-aircraft missile defense systems around the Pentagon is just insane.

I'm sorry but it is an absolutely crazy conspiracy theory to believe they "just didn't know", "just didn't imagine", had "no prior warning". If it wasn't an inside job, they certainly intentionally allowed it to happen. Criminal negligence from Clinton to Bush and every one else in control that was involved.

[theForgottenone]

Alright..since this getting slightly leaning toward another subject, might as well give some input.

Regard to 9/11 incident. Can anyone explains to me why WT7 collapse? It was never damage or have any fire from initial impact or debris from explosion Which govt agency office reside within that building?

[7 VII 7]

wow

talked to my roommate last night about this and he saw the plan crash into the pentagon when he was walking from the parking lot over the bridge. he works for MITRE which his contract at the time was held in the Pentagon

my roommate does not lie about stuff like this.

sooooo 850T-5 your story is crap

[Guest 850T-5]

more after the fact witnesses? it is kind of funny how later you say, oh yeah and I know someone else who saw. I didn't say it was impossible for them to have seen a 757 which appeared to have crashed, however again the Blackbox data shows the altitude at the time of impact at 479 feet, which would indicate a low flyby during a missile strike, a diversion.

Again, check out Pilots for 9/11 Truth, Pilots with 20+ years experience and watch Pandora's Black Box, this is fact and all the NTSB can say to them is "you got what you got".

It's not "my" story, there is overwhelming evidence, do some research. The facts I laid out are true.

But anyway, for those that don't understand.

If it's crap maybe you can explain this. Again, like I said . . . .

Let's try a different approach. How about this. let's say, just say it wasn't an inside job, didn't happen although the overwhelming evidence shows this

Why was the countless intelligence from the Clinton to the Bush administration ignored? I have an entire list of these countless documented warnings, too much to even list because it would flood this topic.

There was even documented intelligence provided by several foreign Governments warning of an attack being planned specifically for Sept. 11th and was going to be in the form of flying planes into buildings?

Instead, rather than having our military on guard, we have planes that could have intercepted to prevent more lost lives, diverted in drills that just conincidentally took place that day with many of our fighters unarmed and diverted all over the place. By the time the fighters that were on standby on the ground were allowed to leave it was too late.

This was especially intolerable for our country's military headquarters to be left wide open on this day given these warnings. Additionally, the claim that we just didn't have any anti-aircraft missile defense systems around the Pentagon is just insane.

I'm sorry but it is an absolutely crazy conspiracy theory to believe they "just didn't know", "just didn't imagine", had "no prior warning". If it wasn't an inside job, they certainly intentionally allowed it to happen. Criminal negligence from Clinton to Bush and every one else in control that was involved.

Building 7

yeah building 7 is one of the biggest jokes of 9/11, so much so that the 9/11 Commission Report left it out entirely. There was "some" light damage to the side of the building and allegedly some fires but even if fires were raging it wouldn't have come down in 6-7 seconds in a perfectly controlled manner.

[Jena]

I just received instructions from the government... I was told to lock you out of my forum to keep from spreading your truths about what exactly happened on 9/11... they said they don't need anymore eyes opened to what actually happened.

I guess it's difficult enough for them already without you adding to it... you know, with keeping the thousands of people who were actually there quiet. That's a lot of gagging and threatening.

[Che'_Moderator]

Someone needs to stop reading the internet, get out of Cali, and go back to flight school. A 3 second google search turned up a topographic map of the beltway area. The base elevation of the pentagon is almost 400 feet.

[ErikS]

I just received instructions from the government... I was told to lock you out of my forum to keep from spreading your truths about what exactly happened on 9/11... they said they don't need anymore eyes opened to what actually happened.

I guess it's difficult enough for them already without you adding to it... you know, with keeping the thousands of people who were actually there quiet. That's a lot of gagging and threatening.

Awesome! Did those instuctions also include an aluminum foil hat for him? Don't want the government stealing all his brainwaves you know.

[Guest 850T-5]

If you have any questions, contact Pilots for 9/11 Truth. Pilots with 20+ years experience realize what the elevation was. It is more than just I saw something on the internet, there are countless facts, documents, witnesses and countless holes in the official story.

I even gave it to you guys right here, let's get some intelligent answers, no BS, no immature comments, come on:

Let's try a different approach. How about this. let's say, just say it wasn't an inside job, didn't happen although the overwhelming evidence shows this

Why was the countless intelligence from the Clinton to the Bush administration ignored? I have an entire list of these countless documented warnings, too much to even list because it would flood this topic.

There was even documented intelligence provided by several foreign Governments warning of an attack being planned specifically for Sept. 11th and was going to be in the form of flying planes into buildings?

Instead, rather than having our military on guard, we have planes that could have intercepted to prevent more lost lives, diverted in drills that just conincidentally took place that day with many of our fighters unarmed and diverted all over the place. By the time the fighters that were on standby on the ground were allowed to leave it was too late.

This was especially intolerable for our country's military headquarters to be left wide open on this day given these warnings. Additionally, the claim that we just didn't have any anti-aircraft missile defense systems around the Pentagon is just insane.

I'm sorry but "what is" an absolutely crazy conspiracy theory to believe they "just didn't know", "just didn't imagine", had "no prior warning". If it wasn't an inside job, they certainly intentionally allowed it to happen. Criminal negligence from Clinton to Bush and every one else in control that was involved.

[Jena]

I don't believe for one second that the Pentagon was damaged by a missile shot from a military aircraft... or that the events that took place on 9/11 were planned by our government.

That's just plain stupid...

"They didn't do anything to prevent the attack... because they wanted to initiate a war, to make themselves more money." That sounds more like something the people running our government would do... IF it benefited their banking accounts. BUT I'm not saying I believe that is what happened.

I just have little faith in our government and most fellow Americans. . IMO, the state of our country has taken a big turn for the worse and is nothing like what it was meant to be when formed.

[7 VII 7]

well it has been going downhills since the 60s :)

[theForgottenone]

well it has been going downhills since the 60s

Sad but true.

There a lot of things I don't want to believe but it actually happens (My Lai massacre) . Sometime, military operations are really questionable beyond reason of doubt.